Rocking & Rolling
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13964
Printed Date: 24 Jun 25 at 8:05am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Rocking & Rolling
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Subject: Rocking & Rolling
Date Posted: 07 Aug 22 at 5:33pm
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Rule 42.2 prohibits rocking and pumping but 42.3 allows rocking 'to facilitate steering' and pumping to 'initiate surfing' (all amongst other things. If I'm sailing on a broad reach can I roll the boat to windward to steer down a wave while sheeting in to accommodate the change in apparent wind the resulting acceleration without breaking 42.2 or can I only pump the sail without rolling the boat?
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Aug 22 at 5:36pm
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Probably good to do some intensive reading from here:-
https://site-isaf.soticcloud.net/raceofficials/rule42/index.php" rel="nofollow - https://site-isaf.soticcloud.net/raceofficials/rule42/index.php |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Aug 22 at 3:27pm
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Thanks Jim, I'm still not sure if simultaneously rolling to windward and sheeting in to promote surfing is prohibited or not. I think it is permitted as the interpretations for rule 42.2 'rocking' says "One roll that does not clearly propel the boat is permitted." and if I'm pumping as well it can't be clear whether the roll, the pump or the wave is what is propelling the boat. It may be that the Finn specific "Common Breaches By Class" would make it clearer but I'm getting a server error when I click the link.
------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 08 Aug 22 at 3:45pm
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Also in marginal conditions how long does the boat have to surf for for an attempt to count as successful or not? ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Mozzy
Date Posted: 08 Aug 22 at 4:22pm
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When surfing I think the roll's should be to facilitate changes of direction and the pump to promote surfing. The two might happen simultaneously, but they don't have to. You can roll each time you change direction that's fine (as long as the changes in direction are required and not fabricated to allow more rolling). Pumping you can only do each time you surf. You can pump in isolation to any rolling, but it's to initiate panning or surf.
Obviously, if you are changing direction, and also speeding up / slowing down, then there will be some 'trimming' of sails in that mix too. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Aug 22 at 8:11am
 The thing is, I sail/race at an informal club during the summer and don't want to gain an advantage in a dubious manner  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Aug 22 at 8:58am
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Pumping, rocking, and sculling are all defined in rule 42.2 as repeated action.
A single pump or single roll is not 'pumping or 'rocking'. As long as it does not clearly propel the boat (in any direction) (Rule 42 Interpretations BASIC 4) it is permitted. I can't see any reason why a combination of roll and single pump should be treated differently from each alone, except maybe, both together might actually 'clearly propel' the boat, when either alone might not do so clearly. Bear in mind that a lot of rule 42 breaches are detected when boats are close together and one suddenly jumps ahead of another. Really, advantageous manoeuvre of a boat by skilful use of legal kinetics should be applauded, not criticised. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 09 Aug 22 at 10:54am
 ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Aug 22 at 11:23am
Now all you have to do is sell that at your informal club, and you'll get a big hand. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 09 Aug 22 at 12:04pm
| As I've said before, I think its a shame that subtle skilful kinetics are banned. However the unsubtle less skilful violent kinetics are rather more effective, and I'm not smart enough to think of a way to permit the first and ban the second. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 10 Aug 22 at 5:57pm
Well, yes  I'm thinking that I will have to try a different technique downwind...------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 10 Aug 22 at 11:39pm
Maybe you could put some video of the top notch Laser guys in circulation to shift the culture around. Radical steering, to grab hold of every little 9 inch wave. A surf doesn't have to be a 20 metre ride with spray flying back in your face. Its just 'rapidly accelerating down the front of a wave' (rule 42.3(c)). That could be for just 1 or 2 metres. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 11 Aug 22 at 10:44am
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But is that stuff strictly legal? I suspect it is within 'the letter of the rules' but I want to race 'within the spirit'. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Aug 22 at 11:05am
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Mate, they're Olympic Medal Races, with the best rule 42 judges in the world all over them.
Its how the game is meant to be played. |
Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Aug 22 at 3:43pm
Good point, well made  ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Aug 22 at 6:48pm
Well, its going to be smack on the limits of what is permissible. As for how its meant to be played, well, who decides that anyway? Isn't RRS42 regulation and enforcement more about the art of the possible than anything else? I think for those of us who are amateurs back from the leading edge there are two considerations. The first is that we should endeavour never to exceed the rule, which is difficult enough, and the second is to figure the comfort zone we personally want to sail in. |
Posted By: Grumpycat
Date Posted: 12 Aug 22 at 8:00pm
I do totally disagree with this statement.There is just the rule. It’s used about laws too. There is the letter of the Law/rule. The ‘ spirit ‘ of the law/rule is not a thing, it does not exist. If someone decides to sail within a rule that’s their choice, it does not mean they are sailing to the ‘ spirit’ of the rule .
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Posted By: Sam.Spoons
Date Posted: 12 Aug 22 at 9:22pm
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Okay, accepted but the RRS are not 'The Law', The Law doesn't have a 'Rule 2 "FAIR SAILING A boat and her owner shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated. The penalty shall be a disqualification that is not excludable" At a National Championship I would not have a problem pushing the rules to the edge as I know that everybody else would be doing the same but, in this context, I'm racing a bunch of mates, most of whom don't race 'seriously'. ------------- Spice 346 "Flat Broke" Blaze 671 "supersonic soap dish" |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 12:49am
I think the very point of rule 2 is that it tells us not to go off philosophising after the 'spirit of the rules'. We are required to find 'recognized principles', and 'clearly established' breaches. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 1:03am
How you back off the competitiveness among your mates is absolutely up to you. But just by way of comment, it seems to me that using strong legal kinetics is different from giving a mate a pass on a close cross, or sailing out from under when a mate sails blithely into a luff trap. The first is just good sailing. The others are giving consideration to mates. What I was driving at in my earlier posts was hosing down complaints about breaking the rules, not going easy on your mates. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 1:13am
Well, isn't doing exactly what the rules allow and no more the fundamental of any competition? I don't love rule 42. It bothers me that:
But rule 42 is what we've got, and until some engineering genius comes up with a better rule, we're stuck with it. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 12:29pm
| Brass, how is planing interpreted by judges? Noting we are allowed to pump promote planing, but a. there doesn’t seem to be agreement among scientists about what it is and b. the definitions that do exist would require scientific experiments to demonstrate. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 14 Aug 22 at 2:16pm
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Judges on the water won't be able to apply those highly technical definitions. They have to rely on some, perhaps old fashioned indicators. Most simply, does a boat accelerate and maintain speed faster than those around it? Does a boat change fore and aft attitude or trim, consistent with 'climbing over its bow wave?
Maybe it's like pornography: we can't define it, but we know it when we see it. Note, judges don't really have to decide whether a boat is planing or not, just whether planing conditions exist, which, admittedly, will in most cases be indicated by boats planing. |
Posted By: moomin
Date Posted: 16 Aug 22 at 6:50am
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I think you should consider the difference between champs with on water judging and anywhere else without. Most sailing we do is self policed, there's no umpire or ref and it's up to us to sail within the rules. If there's a judge on the water I'm more likely to push the amount of kinetics I do, partly as a learning process, it's not often you get the opportunity to test what's legal or not. Without a judge on the water I keep it still, I don't want to be that person who everyone complains about at the bar after sailing but it's just not worth the hassle of protesting. As someone upthread has said, rule 42 is a difficult one to define so keep it simple and friendly when sailing against the folk you have to see every weekend! ------------- Moomin |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 16 Aug 22 at 7:51am
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I don't agree that racers should be pre-emptively bowing down to the court of ill informed public opinion.
There's no reason for anyone to refrain from doing something they know is within the rules just because there's no judge there to not penalise them. In Sam's OP, he asked about a perfectly legal combination of moves, which if well executed could get him a surf worth two or three boatlengths. That shouldn't be open to the complaint that 'he sailed much faster than me therefore he must be cheating'. |
Posted By: Dakota
Date Posted: 16 Aug 22 at 8:29am
| Totally agree with this point . |
Posted By: moomin
Date Posted: 16 Aug 22 at 8:52am
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I've failed to explain myself, I'll try again! If you are certain you are within the rules and can explain, coach and encourage others to improve their technique, absolutely go for it. But this is different to pushing the envelope into the grey area, I'm just advocating for staying a little clearer of the grey area when there's no one there to tell you you've gone too far, especially if you're at the front of the club fleet. All everyone else sees is a boat doing a horizon job every weekend with a load of iffy kinetics! Doing that isn't improving your sailing or helping anyone else. ------------- Moomin |