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Mixed fleet leeward mark rounding incident
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Turkey Pie View Drop Down
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Posts: 35 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Turkey Pie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mixed fleet leeward mark rounding incident
    Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 6:22pm
Thanks Chaps, Your advice around the rules has been very informative and I'm clear on this now.

I find with the technical jargon of the rules I unfortunately tend to loose my train of thought within one sentence, let alone a paragraph!
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:39am
60.1 A boat may ... protest another boat, but not for an alleged breach of a rule of Part 2 or rule 31 unless she was involved in or saw the incident;

So you may (and indeed under the fundamental rule you really should) protest any and every boat you consider broke a rule.

And
A protest committee may ... protest a boat ... if during the hearing of a valid protest it learns that the boat, although not a party to the hearing, was involved in the incident and may have broken a rule;


So your protest should identify as many as possible of the boats that you consider broke a rule. It seems its now irrelevant who they fouled (if indeed it ever was), and if the PC identifies further boats in the course of the hearing that were involved they may (and really should) be added to the hearing.

Who the ultimate guilty party(ies) are isn't really your problem, that's down to the PC to sort out. They may find some boats in the incident, although they broke a rule, get exonerated because they were prohibited from obeying the rules by another boat's actions, but that's all down to the PC to sort out. The protest form only needs to identify the incident. It doesn't affect the outcome if the protester gets every single rule breach they allege wrong.

Edited by JimC - 22 Jan 16 at 9:47am
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:37am
Originally posted by Turkey Pie

As it appears to have been established that I was in the right. If I chose to protest, who would it be against.

1) the 2 asseys that I knew which boats were. These guys had no room to keep clear.

2) the conventional class boats. They were out of my sight, so would need to in investigate who they were after the race

Originally posted by Rupert

Good question! Do you protest them all, or just the first one in the chain? If they are unable to keep clear because of the actions of the boats around them, do they then have to protest the next boat along, and so on?


Leaving Magenta on S out of it, arguably Yellow is not giving mark-room to everyone else, Blue is not giving mark-room to everyone else, etc etc.

It if was decided that Yellow did not fail to give you mark-room to Cyan because they were too far apart (which I wouldn't think was a good decision), then Yellow would have at least failed to give mark-room to Blue, etc etc.

Protest the lot of them.

If you just protested the Assy boat closest to you, then a smart protest committee might then protest each other boat up the chain under rule 60.3( a )(2), but that requires the protest committee to be smart and to exercise a discretion in your favour.

60.3 A protest committee may
(a) protest a boat, but not as a result of information arising from a request for redress or an invalid protest, or from a report from an interested party other than the representative of the boat herself. However, it may protest a boat
(1) if it learns of an incident involving her that may have resulted in injury or serious damage, or
(2) if during the hearing of a valid protest it learns that the boat, although not a party to the hearing, was involved in the incident and may have broken a rule;

Likewise the intervening boats.   They are under no obligation, in any circumstances to protest another boat.

60.1 A boat may
(a) protest another boat,


Don't rely on anybody else to do your work for you.

You have to hail 'protest' and, if you boat was over 6m, display a red flag at the first reasonable opportunity after the incident to get a valid protest in the first place.  Nothing says that you have to hail sail numbers or identify boats at that time. "I didn't think it was me that was being protested" is no excuse.

You can submit a valid written protest within the protest time limit, without including the identity of the boat you are protesting, as long as you do identify the protestee and advise the protest committee before the hearing.

61.2 Protest Contents
A protest shall be in writing and identify
(a) the protestor and protestee;
(b) the incident, including where and when it occurred;
(c) any rule the protestor believes was broken; and
(d) the name of the protestor’s representative.
However, if requirement (b) is met, requirement (a) may be met at
any time before the hearing, and requirements (c) and (d) may be met
before or during the hearing.

Sailing into a pack-up then claiming you didn't have room to give room or mark-room is no excuse:  All the Assy boats have been overlapped for quite a long time (none clear astern of another), and the Sym boats will likewise have been overlapped on Cyan for quite some time and even on the two Stbd Assy boats for a significant time.  The Get out of Gaol  card for 'unable to give mark-room' in rule 18.2( e ) is restricted in application and only applies if a boat is unable from the time the overlap began.

(e) If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give markroom, she is not required to give it.



Edited by Brass - 22 Jan 16 at 9:40am
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:18am
Originally posted by GarethT

Does that work in practice, or would they just be deemed to have not had opportunity to keep clear?

I guess it would be down to how many boats there are. If you are inside 3 boats it's reasonable to expect the third to be aware of what's going on. If it's a raft of 20, are we expecting each to protest the one outside it? The theory and reality may not match up.

That is the problem.

If it is a raft of 20 there is probably zero chance that you would know the outside boat!
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Posts: 714 		Post Options Post Options   Quote GarethT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:17am
Does that work in practice, or would they just be deemed to have not had opportunity to keep clear?

I guess it would be down to how many boats there are. If you are inside 3 boats it's reasonable to expect the third to be aware of what's going on. If it's a raft of 20, are we expecting each to protest the one outside it? The theory and reality may not match up.
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:11am
I think you protest the boat that failed the rule for you, it is up to them to protest the subsequent boat after that.
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:02am
Good question! Do you protest them all, or just the first one in the chain? If they are unable to keep clear because of the actions of the boats around them, do they then have to protest the next boat along, and so on?
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Posts: 35 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Turkey Pie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 8:20am
As it appears to have been established that I was in the right. If I chose to protest, who would it be against.

1) the 2 asseys that I knew which boats were. These guys had no room to keep clear.

2) the conventional class boats. They were out of my sight, so would need to in investigate who they were after the race
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote piglet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 16 at 7:01pm
Originally posted by sargesail


 No reason why you shouldn't do that as long as it doesn't get aggressive or shouty.

Given the all inclusive nature of the event Sargesails comment bears much weight.
I am also competing with like boats but want to enjoy the experience.
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 16 at 11:59am
Originally posted by GarethT

Are the other boats expected to anticipate port gaining a right of way, or do they only have to start avoiding/giving room once he has?


Port does NOT gain right of way in this particular mark rounding situation. This is an important concept in the rules these days. Outside is required to give inside mark room. So the gaining ROW rule does not apply. And Port has been the inside overlap boat and going to be entitled to mark room for some considerable time, so I don't really see there's any anticipation involved.

Right of way means you can sail where you like, subject to a few limitations. One of those limitations is you must let an inside boat through at a mark, even though it doesn't have right of way.

Edited by JimC - 12 Jan 16 at 12:06pm
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