Mixed fleet leeward mark rounding incident
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Topic: Mixed fleet leeward mark rounding incident
Posted By: Turkey Pie
Subject: Mixed fleet leeward mark rounding incident
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 6:05pm
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So, sailing in about force 2 torwards the leeward mark, (same mark for both the asymmetric and conventional fleets). For the asymmetric, we approached the mark downwind, some on port and some on starboard. The conventional fleet were sailing to it on broad reach from another mark on starboard. I was furthest out, pretty much on the lay line on port with kite up. With about 30 metres to go it was clearly going to be a very busy rounding. I was the only port boat, but two other Asys were soaking on starboard torwards mark and maybe 3 or 4 conventional boats were going to arrive at the same time also on starboard. To make matters more interesting there was one boat just rounding the mark and sheeted in hard on starboard. Sometime, perhaps just before 3 boat lengths from mark I started haling for water I did this and dropped the kite early because I was aware that a lot of action was required to make room for me and the other 2 starboard soaking boats. I suspect I was also going a little faster than the starboard boats as more clear air and faster boat then most. When at 2 boat lengths I was still the only boat hailing for water and was not in a position to bail out as I would have hit the boat on starboard beat. There was only room for water for one boat at the mark and a collision between the 2 assys and conventional fleet resulted, together with hitting the mark. Before this collision I cleared past the starboard beating boat and was able to jibe off before the mark in order to bail out and then tack round to re-approach the mark. My questions are these. 1) How much anticipation is required from me. I had the opportunity to bail out in front on the starboard boat, but at that time I was racing within the rules, (I think), and was expecting some room to be available. Had I have bailed out early, one of the other assys could have bailed out after the beating boat - thus no collision and water for one boat would have worked. 2) A friend at the club suggested that no response is required from anyone from outside 3 boat lengths, but if this is the case there would not be enough time to respond to allow enough room for reasonable mark rounding for 3 boats abreast. This is where the problem seems to me to hinge on. Should the starboard conventional fleet have left enough room for three boats abreast? 3) I still don't fully understand the port rounding rule, but think that my overlap was established on the starboard boats from way out? 4) I think I was the only boat hailing for water. Is this relevant? Hope this is not too confusing. Not sure how to post picture |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 6:44pm
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Rules wise you were most likely entitled to mark room.
Practically speaking your chances of getting it were minimal. Six overlapped starboard boats are probably not going to succeed in communicating the need to give mark room for a port one in time for it to happen, especially if they have't heard a hail until 3 boats lengths. Think about the time to appreciate a situation and then act on it, and then multiply that by the number of boats and the need for the appreciation and action to pass up and down the chain. For that lot to sort themselves out they need to start planning way before 3 boat lengths, so a hail would be advisable at a good distance. |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 6:47pm
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Doing it from back to front.
4. Calling water is irrelevant. You should be calling for Room. 3. You are correct in your assumption that you are entitled to room even though you are on port. Assuming mark to be left to starboard should include space to gybe. (Not excluded by 18.1) 2. This depends on how the overlap is established. (18.2e If a boat obtained an inside overlap from clear astern or by tacking to windward of the other boat and, from the time the overlap began, the outside boat has been unable to give mark-room, she is not required to give it.) I would like to hear from Brass but since the conventional boat probably gave you an instantaneous overlap when they came from the previous mark and had a long established overlap on the two asymmetric boats, they have to anticipate. No other part of 18 gives them leave not to give room. 1. Your anticipation is governed by 14a so looks as you were ok. Interesting to see if other interpretation. Andy ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 7:38pm
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Thanks Guys. What I'm taking from this so far is :- 1) Call for room, not water. A bit concerned that many of the sailors will be oblivious to this as they expect "water," to be called for but I will change to this in future. 2) Jim - I entirely accept your point that it was a tall order for enough room to be provided as I was only calling from approx 4 boat lengths from mark. I assume this means the suggestion made to me that no response is required from outside 3 boat lengths is completely incorrect? 3) Room to gybe. I suspect I would only attempt approach on port to claim water in light wind. This is because of the wide angle required for gybe - But :- Taking the rules to the N'th degree. If I come steaming into the mark on port in say a force 4 with kite dropped sailing in a seaman like way should I expect enough room for Gybe with me in a hi performance boat and other boat say - Solo. I would need a boat length high of the mark so would I have rights over 2 boats lined up or should I be able to carry out gybe in the space they would require in slower boat.
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Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 8:06pm
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Sometimes it's best to slow down and remain clean. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 9:25pm
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Is this diagram about right?
I’m unclear whether the mark was to be rounded to port or to
starboard. In any case, P is not clear astern of any of the starboard
tackers, and none of the starboard tackers are clear astern P, so P is
overlapped on all the starboard tackers (Definitions: Overlap).
When boats reaching on opposite tacks converge, they will almost always
have been overlapped for quite some time, no matter how far apart they were
initially. So, regardless of who reaches the zone first, boats are
overlapped and rule 18.2(b) applies. Whichever
boat is overlapped outside is required to give mark-room to a boat overlapped
inside. If the mark is to be
rounded to port. P is outside all the starboard tackers and required to give
them all mark-room (rule 18.2( b )), and keep clear of them (rule 10), and avoid
contact (rule 14). P did this, although I wonder why she didn’t just run deep
and go around the outside of the whole shemozzle. If the mark is to be
rounded to starboard. P is inside all the starboard tackers and they are required
to give P mark-room (rule 18.2( b )). P’s remaining obligation is, when it becomes clear that
boats are not giving mark-room, to avoid contact (rule 14( a )) In terms of anticipation, particularly with a big pile-up
like this, it may become The rules contain no requirements for hailing for room (Case
41), except with respect to a close hauled boat hailing for room to tack at an obstruction
under rule 20. A hail, as a situation is developing may be prudent (Case 41)
and is an action that a boat may take to avoid contact (Case 107). No particular words are required, and British Commonwealth
sailors will understand ‘Water’ or ‘Room’ according to context. I don’t think rule 18.2( e ) is going to help anybody. Rule 18.2( e ), to excuse a boat unable to
give mark-room, requires that she be unable to give mark-room from the time
the overlap began, which is going to have been quite away back, before
boats came close together, so where there was plenty of space to spread out. |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 10:10pm
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1) No requirement to hail (in almost all situations). Each boat is expected to know the rules, to keep a lookout, and to make room if the rules say they are required to.
2)Largely incorrect. Rule 18 only switches on when one boat reaches the 3 length zone, but it switches on completely. So if you are outside boat when one boat hits the zone, and you've left yourself in a situation where you cannot give room then you've broken the rule and you need to take a penalty. So you need to make sure, as you approach the mark, that you will not break a rule, and if that means starting to make room well outside the 3 boat lengths zone so be it. 3) If you are coming in as port give way boat with mark room then you are only entitled to enough room to sail to the mark and gybe. You can't sail further from the mark to make a safe gybe. If conditions are hairy enough that you cannot guarantee to make the gybe when the rules require, but instead will need to pick your wave or moment, well, tough. All this means, pragmatically, that whilst you may be entitled to mark room, it may give a better result for you if you don't go for it. If I need to pick my wave to gybe, well, I'd take their sterns and gybe when I was ready. Better that than a 720 or a swim. And if the mad log jam I am entitled to mark room from looks as if they are going to pile up and not let each other in, let alone me, then again I'll probably get a better result if I take their sterns and go round them. And while I may not be required to hail, in the sort of situation you describe, and in a friendly club race, 10 or 15 secs out from the mark I might be saying something like "Looks like I'm going to want mark room here folks". |
Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 10:18pm
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The diagram is almost correct. The only significant difference is that P was tight between the Starboard beating boat and the Starboard Soakers and hence could not bail out by Gybing off as would have hit starboard beater. The mark was being rounded to starboard. In Hindsight I think I should have been calling for water / room for longer but didn't think it was in compliance with the rules. I am at a loss as to why the Starboard soakers were not being at all vocal to the overlapped boats. The criticism made to me was that the closest soaker to me had no chance of avoiding collision. This was correct but he was not calling for room to anyone but me, and I had nowhere to go by this point.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 10:37pm
Not too keen on this. The mark-room you are entitled to is room to round the mark which is the space you need in the existing conditions ... while manoeuvering promptly in a seamanlike way (Definitions: Room). If the conditions, at some point make it unsafe to gybe, then it's not seamanlke to gybe, and you are quite entitled to await a suitable wave or lull (but this might put you outside the zone). But I agree you don't want to be too conservative: there could always be dispute about whether it was safe or not.
But the distance and interrupted sight lines etc between P and the outside-most starboard tacker, who is the one that is going to need to be giving room may be so great, that that boat may not be able to hear or understand, let alone respond in time to a hail that the Port tacker gives in sufficient time (meaning far enough away) for it to do any good. Put if P hails, she is giving it her best shot.
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Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 10:40pm
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Jim, I agree with all of that. Unfortunately I think a fair proportion of the conventional fleet are in denial that a port boat has any rights on a leeward rounding when they are on starboard. Its a series which just lasts two months at a club which generally sails slower boats. Previous years I've had a more pragmatic approach whilst being billy no mates in my class. This year there are five of us at pretty similar levels and undoubtedly we are going to push a bit harder than would otherwise do,as our racing is really tight. I really don't want to cause friction though. I plan on directing some doubters to this post - hopefully in a nice way
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Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 10:46pm
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Brass. Yes your correct in your assumption. The starboard conventional boats could only hear the ranting of a mad man as they couldn't see me because of the starboard soakers. The starboard soakers said nothing!
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 10:55pm
Turkey Pie, When you do, you could console them with the fact that they are far from alone in their denial! I find this is one of the worst observed rules out there, especially in handicap fleets. So, as you did, it is worth keeping one eye on the potential consequences and being ready to avoid collision. And begin managing the other boats nice and early. No reason why you shouldn't do that as long as it doesn't get aggressive or shouty.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Jan 16 at 11:59pm
Take sprit kites out of the discussion. Get them to run through the rules with two pole kite boats on opposite gybes at the end of a run. The situation is exactly the same. |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 12 Jan 16 at 6:34am
| Are the other boats expected to anticipate port gaining a right of way, or do they only have to start avoiding/giving room once he has? |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Jan 16 at 9:45am
When and how does P gain right of way? Rule 15 deals with change in right of way. So, unless she gains right of way through the other boat's actions, a boat newly gaining right of way shall initially give the other boat room to keep clear. So the other boat, while she is the right of way boat, need not anticipate becoming the give way boat, unless she gives away her right of way through her own actions.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 12 Jan 16 at 9:54am
Quite true, but I think the 'denial' problem might have a few more dimensions. By all means get the 'conventionals' to consider two conventional sym boats approaching a mark side by side on opposite tacks, first at AWA 175 each, then AWA 165, then AWA 155, so they master the idea of boats converging at an angle. Then, maybe show the port tack boat as an assy boat coming at say AWA 120, so they get the idea of assy and sym boats operating under the same rule. The barriers that I think might be applying in the scenario are:
Case 12 may help them get the message
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Jan 16 at 11:59am
Port does NOT gain right of way in this particular mark rounding situation. This is an important concept in the rules these days. Outside is required to give inside mark room. So the gaining ROW rule does not apply. And Port has been the inside overlap boat and going to be entitled to mark room for some considerable time, so I don't really see there's any anticipation involved. Right of way means you can sail where you like, subject to a few limitations. One of those limitations is you must let an inside boat through at a mark, even though it doesn't have right of way. |
Posted By: piglet
Date Posted: 12 Jan 16 at 7:01pm
Given the all inclusive nature of the event Sargesails comment bears much weight. I am also competing with like boats but want to enjoy the experience. |
Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 8:20am
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As it appears to have been established that I was in the right. If I chose to protest, who would it be against.
1) the 2 asseys that I knew which boats were. These guys had no room to keep clear. 2) the conventional class boats. They were out of my sight, so would need to in investigate who they were after the race |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:02am
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Good question! Do you protest them all, or just the first one in the chain? If they are unable to keep clear because of the actions of the boats around them, do they then have to protest the next boat along, and so on? ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:11am
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I think you protest the boat that failed the rule for you, it is up to them to protest the subsequent boat after that. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:17am
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Does that work in practice, or would they just be deemed to have not had opportunity to keep clear?
I guess it would be down to how many boats there are. If you are inside 3 boats it's reasonable to expect the third to be aware of what's going on. If it's a raft of 20, are we expecting each to protest the one outside it? The theory and reality may not match up. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:18am
That is the problem. If it is a raft of 20 there is probably zero chance that you would know the outside boat! ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:37am
 Leaving Magenta on S out of it, arguably Yellow is not giving mark-room to everyone else, Blue is not giving mark-room to everyone else, etc etc. It if was decided that Yellow did not fail to give you mark-room to Cyan because they were too far apart (which I wouldn't think was a good decision), then Yellow would have at least failed to give mark-room to Blue, etc etc. Protest the lot of them. If you just protested the Assy boat closest to you, then a smart protest committee might then protest each other boat up the chain under rule 60.3( a )(2), but that requires the protest committee to be smart and to exercise a discretion in your favour.
Likewise the intervening boats. They are under no obligation, in any circumstances to protest another boat.
Don't rely on anybody else to do your work for you. You can submit a valid written protest within the protest time limit, without including the identity of the boat you are protesting, as long as you do identify the protestee and advise the protest committee before the hearing.
Sailing into a pack-up then claiming you didn't have room to give room or mark-room is no excuse: All the Assy boats have been overlapped for quite a long time (none clear astern of another), and the Sym boats will likewise have been overlapped on Cyan for quite some time and even on the two Stbd Assy boats for a significant time. The Get out of Gaol card for 'unable to give mark-room' in rule 18.2( e ) is restricted in application and only applies if a boat is unable from the time the overlap began.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 9:39am
So you may (and indeed under the fundamental rule you really should) protest any and every boat you consider broke a rule. And
So your protest should identify as many as possible of the boats that you consider broke a rule. It seems its now irrelevant who they fouled (if indeed it ever was), and if the PC identifies further boats in the course of the hearing that were involved they may (and really should) be added to the hearing. Who the ultimate guilty party(ies) are isn't really your problem, that's down to the PC to sort out. They may find some boats in the incident, although they broke a rule, get exonerated because they were prohibited from obeying the rules by another boat's actions, but that's all down to the PC to sort out. The protest form only needs to identify the incident. It doesn't affect the outcome if the protester gets every single rule breach they allege wrong. |
Posted By: Turkey Pie
Date Posted: 22 Jan 16 at 6:22pm
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Thanks Chaps, Your advice around the rules has been very informative and I'm clear on this now. I find with the technical jargon of the rules I unfortunately tend to loose my train of thought within one sentence, let alone a paragraph!
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