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Tacking in the zone and mark room.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tacking in the zone and mark room.
    Posted: 14 Apr 15 at 4:00pm
Clear ahead or far enough to leeward, I'd say. Tacking close under a stb boat in the zone is where you leave yourself open. Which is a shame really, as get the timing right and it is a winner.
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gordon View Drop Down
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Apr 15 at 3:33pm
Because if she was clear ahead there is little chance of proving that Starboard had to avoid Port whilst Port was tacking.

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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 15 at 11:55pm
Why does it matter whether the tacking boat reached her close hauled course clear ahead or overlapped to leeward of the other boat?
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Apr 15 at 5:00pm
In a hearing Port would have 2 key points to establish:

- she was clear ahead when she reached a close hauled course;
- Starboard was bearing away -or had just borne away- when there was contact.

Being clear ahead means that any claim that she broke rule 13 would be unlikely to stick
If Starboard was bearing away that eliminates 18.3a

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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 15 at 7:15am
Originally posted by Noah

... When my tack is complete I don't think there's an overlap. Further, he (I maintain) bears down onto me and collides.


Originally posted by Noah

Yes, I tack facing forwards.

Distance between us when my tack was completed? I would say that his bow passed my transom as I sat down on the side deck. 

Contact was beam to beam close to amidships ... .


Originally posted by Presuming Ed

... you would normally say that in the time taken to go from clear astern to alongside, he had sufficient time to luff to keep clear. 

Big question to the other boat, asking him why he didn't keep clear. 

Yup.

Other boat becomes overlapped outside to windward from astern, with nothing to windward of her:  if she doesn't make contact initially, then she has been initially given room to keep clear thus:
  1. tacking boat did not break rule 15;
  2. there was room to keep clear therefore it was possible to keep clear, therefore it was reasonably possible to avoid contact.
If there WAS contact, the outside windward boat:
  1. does not keep clear and breaks rule 11;
  2. does not , when reasonably possible, avoid contact and breaks rule 14.
REGARDLESS of whether she was forced by the tacking boat to sail above close hauled.

Rule 18.3 operates like rule 17:  it co-exists and does not make any changes to rule 11.

If the other boat thinks rule 18.3 (or rule 17) is broken, she must keep clear and protest.

If she does not keep clear, she may get the tacking boat penalised, but should also be penalised herself.
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sargesail View Drop Down
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Apr 15 at 6:40am
Originally posted by Brass

Originally posted by sargesail

I agree that invariably Port will lose this protest.

Only if you come up against a protest committee that doesn't understand rule 18.3 and believes

Originally posted by Noah

I tacked in the zone and in doing so forfeited all rights.

A boat that tacks inside in the zone has no less rights than a boat making a close lee bow tack anywhere else on the race course.  OK EXCEPT:
  1. if the other boat isn't overstood and IS forced to sail above close hauled (and I admit it's not that hard for the other boat to sail high and later claim in a protest hearing that she was forced to do so);  and
  2. if you muff the tack, you don't have a lot of runway to get going, and may hit or miss the mark.
Sure 'don't tack in the zone' is a good starting point, but, as Rupert is advocating, well done, its a pretty good move.


Back to tactics again - but I prefer the maxim 'don't approach the windward mark with less than 3 lengths zone of the port layline (unless there's a compelling reason to do it!)'.  Not as punchy but a better tactical guide.

I'm afraid that I have seen a few PCs (two personally and s few vicariously) that didn't appear to understand 18.3, or perhaps more accurately had a confirmation bias to find facts supporting the disqualification of the port tack boat.  One in particular in which evidence was given by both protestor and protestee that starboard was overstood, but which didn't find its way into the facts found.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 11:35pm
Originally posted by sargesail

I agree that invariably Port will lose this protest.

Only if you come up against a protest committee that doesn't understand rule 18.3 and believes

Originally posted by Noah

I tacked in the zone and in doing so forfeited all rights.

A boat that tacks inside in the zone has no less rights than a boat making a close lee bow tack anywhere else on the race course.  OK EXCEPT:
  1. if the other boat isn't overstood and IS forced to sail above close hauled (and I admit it's not that hard for the other boat to sail high and later claim in a protest hearing that she was forced to do so);  and
  2. if you muff the tack, you don't have a lot of runway to get going, and may hit or miss the mark.
Sure 'don't tack in the zone' is a good starting point, but, as Rupert is advocating, well done, its a pretty good move.
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Noah View Drop Down
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 6:50pm
We've gone from rules and who's right/wrong to tactics! Like it  Smile  Clap
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Posts: 1459 		Post Options Post Options   Quote sargesail Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 5:37pm
Originally posted by Rupert

Nah, don't duck unless you think you have to. Its all part of the game. Didn't quite come off this time, and maybe a 20' keelboat is the wrong class to pick on, but next time you might gain a shed load of places. I'll carry on trying it, that's for sure, even knowing I ought to be on starboard earlier.

And don't duck him anyway - in most cases the fastest way to get round the mark behind him is to sail the same course but slower - ease the jib for example.  That way you sail the shortest distance to the mark, and get round earlier.
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 2:30pm
Nah, don't duck unless you think you have to. Its all part of the game. Didn't quite come off this time, and maybe a 20' keelboat is the wrong class to pick on, but next time you might gain a shed load of places. I'll carry on trying it, that's for sure, even knowing I ought to be on starboard earlier.
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