Tacking in the zone and mark room.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11951
Printed Date: 28 Jun 25 at 6:26am
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Topic: Tacking in the zone and mark room.
Posted By: Noah
Subject: Tacking in the zone and mark room.
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 9:45am
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OK, so I’m approaching the windward mark, on port, about a couple of boat lengths shy of the port tack lay line. There’s a boat approaching above (my perception) the starboard tack lay-line who is plainly the right of way boat. Doing nothing would result in a collision. I don't have the space to cross. I will have to tack or duck. Because it appears there’s space, I elect to tack (yes – in the zone) to leeward, on the starboard lay-line. When my tack is complete I don't think there's an overlap. Further, he (I maintain) bears down onto me and collides. Calls of ‘Protest’ from the other boat, so I did my turns, on the basis that I tacked in the zone and in doing so forfeited all rights. Question is: Did I need to? I read rule 18 but could not work out who was in the right… ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Replies:
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 10:33am
Something like this? http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/gallery/album_860/gallery_419_860_38620.jpeg" rel="nofollow - http://forums.sailinganarchy.com/uploads/gallery/album_860/gallery_419_860_38620.jpeg (Grrr. Carp Y&Y forum software strikes again. Why isn't there a gallery function here. Why can't I upload images??? Is this the 21st century?) So. From the top. 18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a
mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.
However, it does not apply
(a) between boats on opposite tacks on a beat to windward,
(b) between boats on opposite tacks when the proper course at the
mark for one but not both of them is to tack,
(c) between a boat approaching a mark and one leaving it, or
(d) if the mark is a continuing obstruction, in which case rule 19
applies. Before you tack, 18 doesn't apply (18.1.a). Once you're through head to wind, you're on starboard, but 13 applies. 13 WHILE TACKING
After a boat passes head to wind, she shall keep clear of other boats
until she is on a close-hauled course. During that time rules 10, 11
and 12 do not apply. " When my tack is complete I don't think there's an overlap. " I.E., in your view, you are clear ahead. 18.3 Tacking in the Zone
If a boat in the zone passes head to wind and is then on the same tack
as a boat that is fetching the mark, rule 18.2 does not thereafter apply
between them. The boat that changed tack
(a) shall not cause the other boat to sail above close-hauled to
avoid contact or prevent the other boat from passing the mark
on the required side, and
(b) shall give mark-room if the other boat becomes overlapped
inside her. The other boat is fetching the mark, so 18.2 does not apply between you. You have no right to mark room, despite being an inside boat. However, as you are a boat clear ahead (in your view), the other boat has to keep clear of you. And if he does get overlapped to windward of you, then he has to keep clear as a windward boat. The difficulty is that this is very much a he said/she said protest, and we only have your side of the story. It could well be that in his view, you tacked too close and there was nothing he could do to avoid contact. Questions: a) I assume you tack facing forwards. When you say that you don't think there was an overlap, how do you know? When did you turn to look? b) What was the distance between the boat when you completed your tack? (Close hauled course) c) You say that you believe he bore away onto you. Where was the contact on your boat? On his? What was the angle between the boats - were you both on the same heading? Did you turn round and see him bear away? |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 10:37am
| And also don't forget that while he was right of way boat he was always entitled to sail straight for the mark even if lower than close hauled. That might feel like bearing down on you but it's his right. |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 11:55am
| And I didn't mention 15. |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 12:01pm
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Ed, thanks. I completely agree that it's a he said/she said and my aim here is education. Your diagram is pretty much spot on. Yes, I tack facing forwards. Distance between us when my tack was completed? I would say that his bow passed my transom as I sat down on the side deck. Crew hadn't had time to get onto the wire (may not have been going out anyway as were were about to round the top mark and go for the hoist). W/W boat's course was lower than mine but not by much. Contact was beam to beam close to amidships - just a brush past, really. At no time did I make him go above a close-hauled course. Perception of bearing down was due to my impression that he changed course. Impossible to prove one way or the other. Jim, I also appreciate that he can sail straight to the mark and doesn't have to anticipate any action on my part, but see previous para. I guess it would come down to when the overlap was established and/or whether he did bear away after hailing 'Starboard'. ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 12:17pm
| My feeling is that in a hearing you'd have trouble avoiding a DSQ under RRS 13/15, so doing the turns was a good call. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 12:21pm
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I'd say that doing your turns was a very good move if things were that close. Coming into the mark tight on Port always a big risk, and I always assume I'll be in the wrong if the move fails. And yes, I'd be cross if I thought the starboard boat had borne away after the tack, not before, but chances are any witnesses wouldn't see it my way - if it is that close, it is too close. Been there, done the turns - grumpily. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 1:20pm
Ah. What sort of boat? Your & his? How fast? How much speed do you loose through the tack? Ceteris paribus, you would normally say that in the time taken to go from clear astern to alongside, he had sufficient time to luff to keep clear. Big question to the other boat, asking him why he didn't keep clear.
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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 2:32pm
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I'm a Fireball, so not the fasted tacking ship on the planet. The other is a Flying Fifteen (20' Uffa Fox designed racing keelboat - carry speed well 'cos they weigh quite a lot!) We're faster, in theory, but until we're properly planing upwind they can be all over us. This is all about time and opportunity, isn't it... ------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 2:42pm
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It's all about 15 and giving room. Did you tack too close? The mark isn't relevant (*). (* Assuming he agrees that he didn't sail above a close hauled).
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Posted By: Presuming Ed
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 2:55pm
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One thing I would say is that to go from clear ahead to alongside in about one to one & a half of forward movement of the other boat does make me want to question you a lot more about distances & speed. Unless you stop dead when you tack(*) something seems off.
(* slight exaggeration for effect)
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 6:04pm
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A 20 foot keelboat carries a lot of way, and doesn't steer like a Laser.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 07 Apr 15 at 11:24pm
| I agree that invariably Port will lose this protest. But I feel Noah's pain - I'd be rich (OK I could afford a pint in a posh yacht club) if I had a quid for every massively overstood starboard tacker that's called don't tack on me in these circumstances. |
Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 9:24am
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I think the court of popular opinion has found me guilty as charged, Me Lud. Should have just ducked him. Another lesson learned...
------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 2:30pm
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Nah, don't duck unless you think you have to. Its all part of the game. Didn't quite come off this time, and maybe a 20' keelboat is the wrong class to pick on, but next time you might gain a shed load of places. I'll carry on trying it, that's for sure, even knowing I ought to be on starboard earlier. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 5:37pm
And don't duck him anyway - in most cases the fastest way to get round the mark behind him is to sail the same course but slower - ease the jib for example. That way you sail the shortest distance to the mark, and get round earlier.
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Posted By: Noah
Date Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 6:50pm
We've gone from rules and who's right/wrong to tactics! Like it  
------------- Nick D-Zero 316 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 08 Apr 15 at 11:35pm
Only if you come up against a protest committee that doesn't understand rule 18.3 and believes
A boat that tacks inside in the zone has no less rights than a boat making a close lee bow tack anywhere else on the race course. OK EXCEPT:
Sure 'don't tack in the zone' is a good starting point, but, as Rupert is advocating, well done, its a pretty good move. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 09 Apr 15 at 6:40am
Back to tactics again - but I prefer the maxim 'don't approach the windward mark with less than 3 lengths zone of the port layline (unless there's a compelling reason to do it!)'. Not as punchy but a better tactical guide. I'm afraid that I have seen a few PCs (two personally and s few vicariously) that didn't appear to understand 18.3, or perhaps more accurately had a confirmation bias to find facts supporting the disqualification of the port tack boat. One in particular in which evidence was given by both protestor and protestee that starboard was overstood, but which didn't find its way into the facts found.
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Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 09 Apr 15 at 7:15am
Yup. Other boat becomes overlapped outside to windward from astern, with nothing to windward of her: if she doesn't make contact initially, then she has been initially given room to keep clear thus:
If there WAS contact, the outside windward boat:
REGARDLESS of whether she was forced by the tacking boat to sail above close hauled. Rule 18.3 operates like rule 17: it co-exists and does not make any changes to rule 11. If the other boat thinks rule 18.3 (or rule 17) is broken, she must keep clear and protest. If she does not keep clear, she may get the tacking boat penalised, but should also be penalised herself.
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Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 13 Apr 15 at 5:00pm
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In a hearing Port would have 2 key points to establish: - she was clear ahead when she reached a close hauled course; - Starboard was bearing away -or had just borne away- when there was contact. Being clear ahead means that any claim that she broke rule 13 would be unlikely to stick If Starboard was bearing away that eliminates 18.3a Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 13 Apr 15 at 11:55pm
| Why does it matter whether the tacking boat reached her close hauled course clear ahead or overlapped to leeward of the other boat? |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 14 Apr 15 at 3:33pm
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Because if she was clear ahead there is little chance of proving that Starboard had to avoid Port whilst Port was tacking. Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 14 Apr 15 at 4:00pm
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Clear ahead or far enough to leeward, I'd say. Tacking close under a stb boat in the zone is where you leave yourself open. Which is a shame really, as get the timing right and it is a winner. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |