Does everything need an asymmetric kite?

Originally posted by Medway Maniac .. I must learn not to believe everything I'm told by friends in the trade. By no means disappointed about your carbon pole, just surprised given that lack of durability was given as a reason when I asked an Alto sailor why the boat didn't use a carbon pole.  Must learn not to believe all I'm told by Alto-sailing club-mates. .... as an Alto pair (formerly out of a 400 and an 800, respectively) ..... Edit: yet another thread hijacked by an Alto discussion!

Was it the 400 sailors who thought carbon poles were not durable by any chance?

Originally posted by oldarn Originally posted by Medway Maniac I got the 5kg figure from someone at P&B - must include more than the sleeve.  But a further disadvantage of the arrangement is that a carbon pole becomes very dubious running in that ss sleeve.  Personally I'd rather the stick my money into the carbon pole and a chute mouth that allowed wrong-side (port-gybe) drops more easily (the latest complaint I've heard from Alto crews at WSC). Medway Maniac, you really ought to get your facts right. The AltO uses an aluminium pole, however you will be disappointed to learn that the carbon pole on the prototype boat is still fine after eight years. Regarding your preference for a chute mouth that allowed a wrongside drop which I assume you have on your boat, you must find it annoying sailing against boats like the 400, 4000 and the Alto all of which swing the pole. You ought to consider fitting Grumphs bit of kit which does it all. What is a wrong side drop? Do you mean a drop when on the wrong gybe!

Edited by Medway Maniac - 28 Mar 13 at 7:14pm

Originally posted by Medway Maniac I got the 5kg figure from someone at P&B - must include more than the sleeve.  But a further disadvantage of the arrangement is that a carbon pole becomes very dubious running in that ss sleeve.  Personally I'd rather the stick my money into the carbon pole and a chute mouth that allowed wrong-side (port-gybe) drops more easily (the latest complaint I've heard from Alto crews at WSC).

In fact the 2.1kg I gave should have been lbs. In fact the sleeve is 1kg.  I must stop using the kitchen scales! Medway Maniac, you really ought to get your facts right. The AltO uses an aluminium pole, however you will be disappointed to learn that the carbon pole on the prototype boat is still fine after eight years. Regarding your preference for a chute mouth that allowed a wrongside drop which I assume you have on your boat, you must find it annoying sailing against boats like the 400, 4000 and the Alto all of which swing the pole.
You ought to consider fitting Grumphs bit of kit which does it all.
What is a wrong side drop? Do you mean a drop when on the wrong gybe! 

Originally posted by iGRF Originally posted by Medway Maniac .  5kg on the bow plus a lot of expense is quite a price to pay for that small gain imho. That kind of sums up the pole swivel, other than some times when your pinching to make a mark and you drop it the wrong way in order to tighten up just to make a mark, you don't really use it if you are full planing. The beauty of the Alto rocker, derived as it presumably was from the five oh, is that it works delightfully in low winds, so as quite often happens in coastal environments you can have full planing breeze on one leg then on another leg during the same race have no wind inshore and you need to swivel the pole to sub plane the shorter direct to the mark distance. So it is the perfect platform to learn sailing hot angles whilst also retaining the direct run to the mark option which of course isn't open to any other fast planing hull. The 4000 can't angle it's pole, nor can the 400 and they both get overhauled by an Alto if the wind drops during a race and we all know how often that can happen. So, an assymmetric kite can be made and used in planing and none planing situations. It could also be made to function on a Fireball, certainly a five oh and any other boat with a rocker that permits fast planing and therefore would deliver the benefits of sailing hot angles. The problem as I see it, all the assymmetric fast planing classes didn't make provision for anything other than fast planing and so paid the penalty, since there is more to sailing as we all know, than just fast planing and hot angles nice as they are, week in week out you need to be prepared for slow shortest route to the mark sailing as well, and of course gusty mixes of on off. A few kilo's on the nose is small price to pay for regular reliable sailing, and as I proved on the twin, it needn't be heavy, the carbon chute entry pole swivel combo weighed less than 2 kgs and delivered the chute far more effectively than the Alto.

You don't get something for nothing, and yes the sleeve and bridge do cost, not alot. It is amazing what some classes charge to go faster than an AltO which all up, including the s/s swing gear and trolley and cover is less than £10K.  The actual pole sleeve weight is 2.1kg.

Originally posted by Medway Maniac Originally posted by getafix <span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4;"> </span> lots of wind + long run + waves, would be about the only time I think I'd find myself hankering after one of those Alto-style 'canting' assy bowsprits and certainly thinking that a symetric kite would be preferable Except that in lots of wind you'd be planing, pointing up and carrying the pole straight out ahead, sailing downwind like any other asymmetric in fact.   From my observation of our Altos at WSC, the 'pole swung back' thing only works when running at or below displacement speed.  In fact, it was quite a while before everyone here (incl some Alto sailors) was convinced that there was any need at all to pivot the pole, so the advantage on open water is at best not hugely obvious even in sub-planing conditions.  5kg on the bow plus a lot of expense is quite a price to pay for that small gain imho. Once you start planing, the boatspeed/windspeed such that you are definitely quicker sailing the angles and taking advantage of the apparent wind. I suspect the pole would be a lot more useful<span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4;"> if it were fitted to a 2000</span><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 1.4;">, though even there pointing up seems to pay once the boat is planing.</span>

That kind of sums up the pole swivel, other than some times when your pinching to make a mark and you drop it the wrong way in order to tighten up just to make a mark, you don't really use it if you are full planing. The beauty of the Alto rocker, derived as it presumably was from the five oh, is that it works delightfully in low winds, so as quite often happens in coastal environments you can have full planing breeze on one leg then on another leg during the same race have no wind inshore and you need to swivel the pole to sub plane the shorter direct to the mark distance.
So it is the perfect platform to learn sailing hot angles whilst also retaining the direct run to the mark option which of course isn't open to any other fast planing hull. The 4000 can't angle it's pole, nor can the 400 and they both get overhauled by an Alto if the wind drops during a race and we all know how often that can happen.

So, an assymmetric kite can be made and used in planing and none planing situations. It could also be made to function on a Fireball, certainly a five oh and any other boat with a rocker that permits fast planing and therefore would deliver the benefits of sailing hot angles.

The problem as I see it, all the assymmetric fast planing classes didn't make provision for anything other than fast planing and so paid the penalty, since there is more to sailing as we all know, than just fast planing and hot angles nice as they are, week in week out you need to be prepared for slow shortest route to the mark sailing as well, and of course gusty mixes of on off.

A few kilo's on the nose is small price to pay for regular reliable sailing, and as I proved on the twin, it needn't be heavy, the carbon chute entry pole swivel combo weighed less than 2 kgs and delivered the chute far more effectively than the Alto.