I guess they came down from the skiff classes but do they really work that well on slower heavier boats, 12ft rotomoulds?

There was recently a very informative thread about the maths of sailing high n fast vs deep running, did those maths apply all the way down the scale of fast to slow boats?

GRF thinks in some cases even the Alto would go better running deeper still.

From a design point of view there is an argument for the simplicity of symmetric kites, especially with some classes employing a swinging pole. To have a swinging pole you need string, blocks and strength in the bow, where it is accepted wisdom that the lighter the ends of a boat are the better it will perform. A symmetric kite in simple terms only needs a pole and a ring on the front of the mast. 

Perhaps widespread adoption of asymmetric kites is part fashion and part perceived ease of use.

I know from my own experience that I was very nervous going from a Buzz to a symmetric kite, big free floppy thing that I imagined it might be. In practice I quickly adapted to it and embraced the choices it offered, the Buzz did sometimes feel as if "the tail was wagging the dog" whereas now all the options are mine to get completely wrong.

Perhaps even, boats such as the Icon with their big blading off mains make kites redundant in some circumstances.

I have no answers but so many questions.

 

Performance wise they are not as good as symmetric kites.

and it's a poor trade off for most round-the-cans racing... especially if the kite is a little on the big side.

Personally I think they're a bit of 90's fad that might well be coming to its natural conclusion on new boat launches... designs like the Icon, NS14, DCB, Shaw 4.0, the current crop of Moths and Dan's Punk proving efficiency and simplicity can deliver an equally rewarding sailing experience to a dumbed down, Downton Abbey Lake SC version of 'Great Aussie Skiffs, Shielas Optional'.

My observations:

Speed:

PY > ca.1050 symmetric is usually faster downwind

PY<  ca. 1000 asymmetric is usually quicker.

In between depends very much on wind and course.

Asymmetric is certainly easier for the crew and requires less expertise/practice.

A symmetric kite can be a real pain with a weak or scratch crew.

My present crew is not technically minded and sails for the pure joy of it - prefers asymmetric.

My former (Fireball) crew finds asymmetrics boring and misses the heightened crew input on a symmetric boat.

For myself, I'd gladly own either, provided I had an appropriate regular crew lined up.  Without a regular, dedicated crew I'd go asymmetric every time.

On different angle, no one has mentioned that you can pump a symmetric kite to huge effect (within the rules of course), in a way you really cannot with an assy. 

 

Rupert wouldnt dare shout at his crew.... not unless he wants to sleep on the sofa

.......with a competent crew and a flattish symmetric there are far more tactical options. So much more water to play with given differing conditions. I think many symmetric teams have been forced down the assy path as old classes have dried up. There are symmetric classes that have persisted but I'd have to travel miles to get to the opens........Plus: younger teams don't seem to stay together long enough to master the symmetric.

 

My role is more or less restricted to driving the tow car, buying tea, pulling the pole line and making an arse of steering through manouevres...

 

Given that there are more helms than crews these days the attraction of sailing a boat where inexperienced people can be brought up to speed quickly makes a lot of sense to me. After all as kids we would team up with a crew and sail together for 2-3 years to be challenging at the top end of a 420 youth fleet. Adults don't necesarily have the luxury of that much free time and team stability.   

 

I know exactly what you mean.

 

 

 

One of those lads learnt to sail with us at Shearwater. Cant see him though so he must be the one with the head cam

A good example is the RS200. Below 15 knots wind, when the boat isn't planning, the 200 would actually be faster downwind with a similar sized symmetric. However, with a symmetric  the downwind priority would always be to focus on boat speed and point directly at the mark for the shortest distance. The reward for deviating from the shortest course has to be very substantial for you to go off the rhumb line even by a few boat lengths.  

The wider area you have the option to sail in downwind greatly increases the tactical options over symmetric sailing. So basically, the 200 is tactically as fun downwind as it is up, even if  the performance could be increased by fitting a symmetric and going straight.  

Many people, including top symmetric sailors, who move into the 200 take a while to adapt to this and it is the main barrier for them to getting to the top of the fleet and take a couple of years (Matt Mee, Chritian Birrell, Jonny McGoven, Stuart Bithell). The two best sailors in the fleet on the only boats I have never beaten are helmed by James Peters and Ben Saxton who spent time as youths gybing down wind in slow boats (feva). 

Of course, in higher winds, or for faster boats (skiffs) when planing there is also a performance advantage in that sailing a greater distance at much greater speed produces a better VMG. 

Last year I was lucky enough to do N12 burton week. It was  fun week with a great bunch of people. But what struck me about the racing was that  only  2/5 legs (upwind) was there any realistic chance of taking strategy decisions that could gain you places.  On the runs and reaches you were effectively fighting for boat speed where you could make only a few boats lengths (if in a 'fast' boat). In most cases you were just stuck with the luck of which gust you rounded with. 

At a 200 nationals every leg of the course has a infinite amount of tactical opportunities which makes the racing much more dynamic. 

If I raced on the small lake, round the cans, where we never did windward leeward, i would get a N12 though, as on these courses you loose the gybe/not gybe decision that is continual on a the run in a asymmetric. 

Conclusion: if I was designing a boat for open courses (anywhere windward leeward is possible) i would always put on a asymmetric. For small lakes and rivers and creeks no spinney or symmetric makes better sense. 

Sorry I didn't realise I was off topic.

I think the common misconception held by many that asymmetric are fashion is held by people with little tactical imagination. Either that or they just haven't sailed a asymmetric enough and are commenting on something they have little experience. 

I will admit if you're on very confined waters these possibilities are reduced, an in some cases you might as well go back to having a symmetric or no kite from a tactical point of view. 

So to the questions: 

Do they work on small slower boats? The answer is yes, but not purely from a speed point of view, they make the racing more tactical assuming you can have windward leeward courses.

Do the equations of whether to heat up or not work for slower boats: yes they do. The speed at which you heat up just increases for slower boats, or boats that plane less readily. 

Are they just fashion? No, they give more tactical racing on open courses. They can be perceived as simpler to use, but this changes from class to class. Generally they are easier to rig and use, but this isn't the main reason for them on racing boats.

In the case of the the RS200s it is interesting to see that the tactics enforced by it's design are valued above wider options. All about the fleet racing vs the vagaries of py racing.

I also find it interesting that two classes which are commonly seen as hard to beat over a wide range of conditions, Merlins & Fireballs have sym kites; py demons.

I appreciate Oldarn's distillation, experience, point of view and his target market. I think the Alto is a cracking boat, however no offence intended, I'd like to have a go in one minus all the gear and string in the bow but with a single pole off the mast.

I guess so long as everyone is happy everyone is right. 

 

  

Yes, symmetrics still sail angles, but by your own admission they are much broader. So this does mean there is far fewer possibilities to exploit. It's just simple maths and it certainly isn't magical... I wasn't saying anything of the like. 

I understand that faster symmetric even sail and gybe on apparent wind... but the original post was about asymmetric on slower boats really. 

In addition to this asymmetrics can't sail dead down wind without a severe speed penalty, whereas symmetric can (although it may be marginally slower). In asymmetric you're forced to make a tactical decision. 

I did watch the stars. Non went more than 10-15% off the rhumb line. They can maneuver into gusts, but mostly they focus on clear air and kinetics on waves. 

Compare this to the 49ers, the splits downwind were huge, they focused much more on hunting over a large area for slight wind increases. 

Yup, that's an interesting point. The 200 was originally brought out and sailed so that you had the option of releasing the kite head, bringing in the sprit, and using a whisker pole to goose wing the spinnaker, so you could sail almost dead downwind. This was of course faster in lighter winds on a run than gybing back and forth.

The class voted the uses of this system out pretty soon, giving up the performance advantage in favour of forcing tactical decisions to be made. 

It's also interesting to note that asymmetric will do best on PY on course with lots of broad reaching (like a triangle) and a symmetric or no spinney do best on a course with windward leeward. Yet in class racing (like nationals) both designs choose courses where performance is less (asymmetric choose windward leeward and symmetric choose triangle sausage). 

So just goes to show, actual performance of their boat over the water means very little in how fun/competitive people perceive their racing to be. 

In the 21st century less is the new more. One less hole in the front of the boat, less weight no stainless steel pivot, less control swing string, a pole that needs to be less strong as it should only be subjected to compression loads not bending loads. Oh yes, and the Alto costs and I think weighs less than a 5OH, truly a boat for the 21st century.

Big respect you for buying one of the first.

I sail a number of classes where we have gone DDW in light winds but gybed as tightly as 90 degrees in a big breeze. At no time has anyone ever said in a chat that the DDW stuff is less tactical. In the DDW stuff the fleet is more packed (because the options are fewer) and therefore making the most of even the tiniest puff becomes critical. 

I was involved in a Laser coaching session the other week where the state champ was stressing the importance of looking behind almost all the time when running on a lake. He didn't say "just go straight", he stressed how vital it was to slip out to get the best from each puff.

I started sailing assys in the '80s and certainly can recall no huge tactical revolution; there was just a different emphasis in downwind choices. 

The Alto genuinely has a high enough power to weight ratio to justify an asymmetric kite, getting into planing & apparent wind sailing at medium wind strengths. I think it's quick enough not to really need it's big selling point of a wide swinging pole and if the multiple options that I enjoy were to be embraced I would prefer a lighter in the bow setup of a sym kite. These opinions however are purely personal and not meant critically.    

It's point of view but the thing is, say what you like "people vote with their feet" marketing, social engineering, rules, guidelines whatever you call to call it doesn't succeed. The profile of a market / or activity will follow the desires of the customers not the other way round.

 

Just a thought

and that would be a bad thing?  have you seen them on the water?  They accelerate like a scolded cat and turn like a skateboard.  As it happens I enquired about one, with the intention to put an asymmetric on it.

I'd reconsider that again there were people to race against... although I'd have to give serious consideration to twin poles and a symmetric kite 

Happy 65th mate!