New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: PN list 2013
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

PN list 2013
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 36>
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: PN list 2013
    Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 8:35pm
I agree- no one does really give a toss, in fact for quite some time out 'handicap racing' wasn't even timed! It really was just a procession around a few buoys. Hence why even though the thought of it week in, week out would probably mean I'd go on a dinghy sailing break for a while, I do have to accept that the turd has been polished.
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 7:48pm
Well that obviously was my plan, but they're still in hibernation at this time of year, last I looked they didn't even have any plans for racing at Easter and in real life, not many of us take it that seriously, it's a fun wind up talking bollox about it on the forum, but nobody really gives much of a toss, it is more the province of inland and lake sailing. On the sea, for the most part it's just fun being out there, I rarely hang around to see how we do unless there's a pint on it.
Back to Top
pondmonkey View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 11
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2202 		Post Options Post Options   Quote pondmonkey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 7:08pm
Hey graeme... why not get H&SSC to post their results... 

y'know, add to the dearth of 'proper sailing venues' who are failing to contribute their results, thus making a total bandit out of any Laser with an XD kit and S.O.D.* upgrade?  

(*Salinity-Over-Drive - only available in proper Lasers, builders fee optional)


Edited by pondmonkey - 26 Mar 13 at 7:11pm
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499 		Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 6:40pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac


and if you believe Grumph (and I think he might be at least half-right here), most returns are from ponds anyway.


I should point out, that guess, has no basis in fact, just an assumption and of course the influence clearly arbitrary but all to powerful nevertheless, of the sail juice lot, whom to my mind far to much influence is given.

It is the lack of transparency that galls me, I've not managed to blunder onto that RYA site in any way that I can gain access to the alleged list of clubs, had I seen that, it could be confirmed or disputed.

Then, even if an even number of coastal and inland clubs were contributing which I doubt, the inland clubs simply by virtue of the often inclement coastal conditions, will contribute more data.

So there is a bias toward inland performance that is increasingly prevalent imv.

Edited by iGRF - 26 Mar 13 at 6:51pm
Back to Top
RS400atC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 04 Dec 08
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3011 		Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 6:28pm
Originally posted by moomin

.....d and we rely on sensible interpretation of the data to accommodate skill factor as best as possible.


Where s the sensible interpretation going to happen?
The numbers get stuffed into a spreadsheet, people follow the instructions without understanding the process numerically.

You can see where this is going, we are headed toward a half baked personal handicap system.
Is that what people want?

You only have to look at the yacht system to see where we are being herded.

RYA policy is only class racing can be taken seriously.

Personally, I'm not much motivated by winning, I enjoy a good race on the water and 99% of the time would rather have a close tactical race and come a close second than beat someone by miles.
But it's useful to know whether I'm sailing a different boat to a similar level as the 400.
Other people I know seem to need the recognition of the results, it is a serious business to them.
The thing is, I need those people to race against and to give our club critical mass.

Our club does dabble in personal handicaps for one series, it's OK for a bit of fun once a year, and it's good to give improvers some recognition but some people are clearly not happy.
Back to Top
Medway Maniac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by moomin

I'd rather use one based on real data from many races on the race track we use every weekend than one based on numbers plucked out of the air by a small number of results officers from clubs the that bother to do returns with unknown amounts of influence from clubs with a variety of water, wind and skill factors.

I think you'll find that your club data is small compared to the current returns to the RYA site, and if you believe Grumph (and I think he might be at least half-right here), most returns are from ponds anyway. 

But if everyone at L&L is happy, then fine.  Where such a system would suddenly turn sour is when a visiting sailor in Class A turns up and trashes the four or five home sailors in that class by 10 minutes in 120.  Then people are left wondering if those home guys really ought to be winning races based on a local PN. And before you ask, yes, such a person did turn up at our club and do the trashing (several times)  but fortunately we weren't using local PY's for Class A...
Wilsonian SC
3000 Class
Back to Top
moomin View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 19 Jan 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moomin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 5:37pm
The problem is I'll never know if I could beat them if I was also sailing a Phantom - I can be fairly certain I wouldn't be competitive in a Phantom, given I sail a Europe and an N12 I'll let you guess why!  OK Wednesday evening drifts I might give them a run but over the course of a full series, unlikely.
Or I could race them in an N12 or even more amusingly a Europe but again I'd be fairly certain they'd feel at a disadvantage.
So we have a problem that if we want to race against each other, and based on many enjoyable races with some good banter, I'm fairly certain we do want to race against each other we have to use some sort of handicap system. 
With this limitation I'd rather use one based on real data from many races on the race track we use every weekend than one based on numbers plucked out of the air by a small number of results officers from clubs the that bother to do returns with unknown amounts of influence from clubs with a variety of water, wind and skill factors. 
If we take the main variables in class performance to be water conditions, wind conditions and skill factor, the previous system was affected by all of these, at least with club based PYs the water and wind conditions are controlled and we rely on sensible interpretation of the data to accommodate skill factor as best as possible.
Moomin
Back to Top
Oli View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 23 Mar 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1020 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 5:13pm
Moomin,

+1  a refreshing attitude to the usual py haters, if only everyone shared the sentiment people might enjoy thier racing.
T-SHIRTS
PRINTS
Back to Top
Medway Maniac View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 13 May 05
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 3:50pm
For sure, Moomin, you could complain if you were being beaten on PY by guys who you knew you could beat if you were also sailing a Phantom.

But if you are happy that the results are throwing up the best sailor as much of the time as possible, given the vagaries of wind and weather and as you say, starting, then I agree you've no need to complain.  The N12 would just seem to go relatively better than the Phantom on your lake. 
Wilsonian SC
3000 Class
Back to Top
moomin View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 19 Jan 05
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 60 		Post Options Post Options   Quote moomin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Mar 13 at 3:24pm
Frequent reader - infrequent poster
Thought I'd offer an opinion from a someone who uses the locally adjusted numbers that AlexM has so kindly been sharing with the rest of the world! I sail one of the 2 National 12s that have had the numbers altered so with enough data going back enough years even a fleet of 2 can get enough races in to get a cf high enough to justify a change.  A personal handicap, maybe, but when we routinely sail round in with the phantoms (or in the other N12s case normally ahead of the phantoms) can we really complain about a change of PY? No it has been arrived at in an open and impartial way.  I still know that the biggest factor on my finishing position will be getting a good start and how we sail the race. 
If I want to go pot hunting I'll get the Europe out as that's still on the national PY, and if you want to pool results from similar clubs I'll take the PY that Chew Valley use for the Europe very happily.  As it is I'm happy to race the N12 and base how I've done by where I am on the water against the boats I've sailed against every weekend for a number of years, be they the same class or another. If I now need to work a bit harder or concentrate more to get the same result that's all good for me, I really don't need any more whisky tumblers.
There should be enough info in there for you to work out who I am and what my results were like throughout the last series!


Edited by moomin - 26 Mar 13 at 3:25pm
Moomin
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 36>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy