PN list 2013
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10738
Printed Date: 17 Jul 25 at 10:11am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: PN list 2013
Posted By: pondmonkey
Subject: PN list 2013
Date Posted: 28 Feb 13 at 7:24pm
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Moan here...
Alternatively the release on the FP sounds like an interesting development... no one can accuse the current tech committee of sitting on their hands: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/168189/The-Portsmouth-Number-list - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/168189/The-Portsmouth-Number-list |
Replies:
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 28 Feb 13 at 7:41pm
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Just waiting to add them to our local hcaps ;) ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 28 Feb 13 at 7:58pm
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There's nothing there.. It's still the 28th of february where I'm sitting, why is that article dated Mar 1st, where is the list? Why are we here? Has there been a shift in the space time continuum I missed? Is this another parsimonious pond life conspiracy against us coastal dwellers? ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 28 Feb 13 at 8:24pm
Just think of it as Christmas Eve.... everyone eagerly waiting to open their present  ------------- |
Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 28 Feb 13 at 9:19pm
Oh mate! is it only just dawning on you
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 28 Feb 13 at 9:44pm
Well I knew something weird was happening, when young blokes started buying pink Solo's.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 28 Feb 13 at 11:33pm
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I'm just getting the thread primed and ready for inevitable outcry and disbelief that will ensue come Monday morning... also that recent press release looks good imho; no one can accuse the RYA and PYAG for sitting with their thumb up their arses and doing nothing to try and level the paying field as best they can. Well done Chris, Bas et al. ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 6:28am
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No "outcry", no "controversy", no "disbelief" required..... I seriously doubt there's going to be anything in this that will stop me throwing the sails in the car and heading off for a sail next weekend, like most people I do it because I like it, not because I'm massively bothered about my boat's handicap or winning pots. Of course if Merlins, Solos, GPs and Phantoms move up +50 points and the whole RS range is -50 points from currennt numbers, then I may have to think again... but likelihood of that |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 7:35am
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I quite agree Getafix... however if there are some winners and losers, there's bound to be a bit of opinion on it, the RYAN statement alludes to some significant changes, it'll be interesting to see what they are. ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 8:28am
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It's the relentless march of the laser, which in sea world was already a bit of a bandit, that gets me, and since a couple of our local wind up merchants spotted the Merlin as an easy ride to the club trophy cabinet, I can now see why it winds people up. I'm of course eagerly awaiting the decision on the supreme boats position in the greater scheme of things, to see if it will be any more worthwhile thinking about venturing forth into the world of cheating furballers.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: rich96
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 9:16am
Its interesting that you seem to bring up the Laser as a bandit - I sailed one for over 20 yrs at a decent level and typically got spanked by trapeze boats in breeze and beaten by Larks, Merlins, 12s, Ents etc when it was light.
Also you never seem to see Lasers winning big handicap or pursuit races ?
I think they seem to perform ok in all winds but not exceptionally in one particular condition ? Just my thoughts.
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 9:29am
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Maybe it's to do with the size of our courses which tend to be a tad on the small size more often than not, and the wave size and length, when it's breezy Lasers surf well and back when I formed that opinion the better sailors used them, having said that we still have one very good sailor, if he shows up, he wins. If I campaigned a Laser Radial, I would probably win, it's a boat that performs better on the sea, for all those reasons we argued about with salt water versus fresh. So I guess it's relentless PY march is likely more down to inland club returns outstripping coastal venues. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: SalsaPirates
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 12:31pm
 On the one hand I hear logic saying .. its a work day .... you will have to wait to late tonight .. just wait until Sat morning and login and have a look then ...... but the kid in me stamps his feet and says I want it now!!! .... agree not acceptable behaviour!!  or are they there somewhere and I am doing something wrong in my search for them?
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Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 12:34pm
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Have you not seen them?? Phantom 990.. ------------- |
Posted By: SalsaPirates
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 12:41pm
And everything else + 30?? perfect .... 
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Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 12:43pm
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Sorry forgot my at the end of the last post ------------- |
Posted By: Ruscoe
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 12:50pm
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I'd be happy with:
Phantom 1005-1010
Merlin 975-990
D-One 970 (more likely to be 965)
Nearly 3 page long thread already and they have not realeased the numbers yet!!!!
Who says handicap racing is dead? ------------- |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 12:53pm
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ok...so who has a link to the official list? ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 12:57pm
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I'm not sure wether I'm that bothered either way, I quite like that it's mission bloody impossible to sail to my handicap, it confirms what I've always known, that as a single handed sailor, I'm quite useless and have lots still to learn, that young whippersnapper Holman breaking out from under me when I should have buried the bugger at the FOM and that great bulk MaxibloodyBuddah, not even getting a sniff at him...And that really old bloke Rodders in an ancient Finn tub.. I could go on, eye opener event that and great to have a challenge to work at. I guess it should be closer to the Blaze, the EPS, they're not that far apart. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 1:36pm
you forget being annihilated by some bloke who hadn't been in a dinghy for 18 months, and had never stepped foot in a Finn before. I think he's a total muppet... guess what that makes you? ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 2:06pm
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I suspect I will feel grateful for having some fleet racing to avoid all the spreadsheet nonsense. I wonder what the small yacht sailors are feeling about the RYA essentially binning PY for yachts? Most clubs around here seem to run on guessed approximations to IRC ratings. Will the clubs that used PY continue? These days the system ought to work better than in my youth, when number crunching was hard, dull and expensive, but I don't think it does. |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 2:19pm
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yeah why wouldn't they - PY is just a base, the clubs can adjust the numbers for a local number, base it off the 2012 number and crack on and go racing!! ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 2:20pm
ftfy ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 2:34pm
Fundamentally the sailors voted with their feet. There were so few returns that the cruiser scheme stopped working. Hopefully the new system will provide adequate entry level racing for boats with lids. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 2:56pm
I will almost certainly agree with you on that, however looking in 'from the outside' gives some clarity to the whole scheme and I think it's far better to have the proactive actions of the current PYAG, making the changes with the intention to improve the competitiveness of handicap racing, than it was to have the old system of hiding qualitative data behind statistics alone. It will be interesting to see what the movers and stickers are this year.
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Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 3:01pm
Wasn't I in that Peaky's Blaze in that race and I couldn't get on with all that bondage gear he'd left lying around or that he had the racks set to the max and no hammock where you need to sit. I did however beat him with his own boat and distinctly recall him messing around doing some sort of tail sink freestyle manoeuvre in the Supreme boat of joy, proving beyond any doubt that the Blaze is a bandit as well. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 3:13pm
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Yes- but you are an experienced Blaze sailor Graeme... and of course we are fully aware of quite what a bandit the Blaze is in small lake, short-course drifters- the boat's ideal for it... in fact I'm surprised Mike doesn't start a marketing campaign to that very effect. ------------- |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 3:21pm
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http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/py-general/2013ListFinal.pdf
A split 100 rig Good to see Topper going up ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 3:30pm
It's always interesting, not always useful though. The key numbers for us are RS400 vs Merlin Rocket and RS400 vs Laser 4000. Anything else would need big changes to have more influence than the weather or course. I'm interested to see what the yacht scheme looks like, one of my clubs uses a local rating scheme for 'club class' i.e. boat without an IRC cert, it seems to be based on very little more than the PRO making a judgement (with a vague awareness of similar boats IRC and Island SC No's), but people seem happy. I think it would be interesting to race dinghies on some sort of sail area and righting moment vs weight yardstick, where you would hope the best quality design would be rewarded...Buying/building a hull that works well in the local conditions and putting the right size rig on it would all be part of the game. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 3:35pm
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The contender is surprising... I'd have thought that'd have been fairly static. Shame not to see the MPS corrected, but I guess parity with the 700 provides plenty of viable local racing if you can get consensus. Good to see the Vareo moving +7, Merlins got off light though compared to their fellow masked marauders in the Phantom (-13 ouch!) Nice to see the RS100s got what they wanted, and the races numbers are recorded and split out, so it seems something has changed at club level in recording the two rig configs. Feva XL does well too... getting +10. In fact all RS classes seem to have faired okay, the worst hit being the 300 at -5, which basically moves the differential with the Phantom into fairer areas imho. A good list...  ------------- |
Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 3:53pm
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The 400 loses another point, but the Merlin takes a big hit. Seems hard to justify a change of +15 for the Laser 3000 with less than 400 races returned. I don't like the lack of transparency, the words about 'average skill level' in the RYA press release don't inspire confidence IMHO. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 4:10pm
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Check out the Contender.. where did that hit come from? That'll have some sparks flying along with the Merlin, ha. Then the Miracle? Wtf it is already the biggest bandit to break water, how and where else are they sailed, some blind school sailing association? It is such a lottery, this system, no basis in fact, just sheer randomness.. and of course no-one gets blamed.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 4:37pm
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Contenders have been adding bits of carbon in recent years, so perhaps it figures. Laser 3000 ?????...I'm stumped there. So it's now 12 points slower than a Laser 2?? What will the V3k lot do now?.........Not many of these about so no major deal. ......all in all I now have greater confidence in the figures though
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Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 4:50pm
| I wondered if there were some V3000 results getting mixed in with the L3000 results and PY? |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 4:51pm
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A good list, that reflects a good number of the opinions aired here, with most stuff moving in the right direction. The stand out ones for me are the 420 and Topper. If it is really honking what else is going to beat them on handicap? 420 vs Wayfarer? ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 4:55pm
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yes- but it's rarely honking enough for a 420 to come into its own. Back in the three-figure days, a 420 was always a little harshly handicapped at 115, (laser 114) iirc. Not that it mattered as they were always close enough to race your mates and no one cared that the Finn slipped away into the distance!
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Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 5:02pm
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I'm kind of glad I didn't go for a Blaze and handicap racing in the end... -8 points, seems harsh for inlanders as they were/are not at their best on restricted waters by many accounts. ------------- |
Posted By: drifter
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 5:08pm
Graduate hammered again 
------------- Stewart |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 5:19pm
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If i wanted a bandit boat i would buy myself another vareo at that handicap i was doing very nicely on its 1035 now being 1052 its almost the same as the 200 on 1053.I cant understand either how come the miracle has not gone down either ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 5:25pm
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Whats with the handicap of the laser 3000 going up 8? it is now slower than a laser 2, and since there isn't a V3000 handicap, presumably they will sail off 1047? Doesn't make sense to me... ------------- |
Posted By: dontdocalm!
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 6:42pm
Not sure if any of the many 3000 CA members around the country will ever find out what's going on, as the website has been down without trace since December 2012! The last time I looked, the webmaster was one "hollandsd" of this parish! Too busy picking colours......... |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 7:02pm
Well, they did bung a huge great new main sail on it a couple of years ago. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: The Moo
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 7:18pm
| Comet +11 will pee off a few of its competitors on puddles. |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 7:33pm
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Good to see the Contenders and MPS handicap going in the right direction...all that new shiny carbon kit on the Contender and especially when sailed properly are hard to get away from, but the Vareo...why on earth do they need ANOTHER 7 points FFS. So where is 2012 "Dinghy Of The Year" the 49er FX on this list - I'm also surprised that the 49er hasn't seen a drop in points, that lot have all pretty much mastered that nice new powerful rig and run rings around the B14's...not at all jealous...no not at all!!! ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 7:59pm
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The Phantom adjustment compared to the Flying Fifteen is a joke and don't get me started on the K1. ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 8:15pm
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The ol' weta gets a +20 points... comfy, no hiking, seriously quick, nice spec, room for the kids and now a total bandit... what's not to like? ------------- |
Posted By: timeintheboat
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 8:18pm
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Blimey just noticed the scrorp has got hammered. ------------- Like some other things - sailing is more enjoyable when you do it with someone else |
Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 8:19pm
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Yes I know the 3000 website has gone down. In between a holiday and 7 weeks jury service I've not had a chance to get it sorted since Christmas.
Once I'm back in the real world I'll get it sorted. Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 8:33pm
The collapse of the Vicky Pryce trial is suddenly understandable!
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Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 8:40pm
Harsh......if you think that of me you'd be worried about what I do for work. Dan ------------- Laser 184084 Tasar 3501 RS600 698 RS600 782 |
Posted By: Xpletive
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 8:47pm
| Can you sign in on the blackboard and do a mime? |
Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 10:53pm
I thought you spent all day in black morph suits and lime green mankini's Dan? ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 11:30pm
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I have to confess to being surprised at the L3k change. That said, I sail 3k's under optimum open water conditions; I think the inland pond 3k'ers will be feeling justified. It is a good question of where to put the CA recommendation for the V3k. Our figure of 1007 hitherto was based on an analysis which showed that for every kg shaved off the displacement (ca. 230 kg for an L3k with crew and all) we could expect a one PY point speed gain. On that basis, I guess we should now recommend 1022 for the V3k. Edit: good to hear you'll soon be getting around to fixing the website, Dan. It has been getting very embarrassing.
------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 11:34pm
true. not sure were that came from, but as the streaker got a big hit the other way, i am not bothered. in general it seems a very well reasoned list with most of the well know suspects taking a hit. as pondmonkey said its ' a good list'. also i see the n12 got a hit, does this mean you(the moo) will start after the laser now! ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 01 Mar 13 at 11:52pm
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It strikes me us coastal dwellers are being shafted by those bloody Sailjuice Great Lakes lot, if it is so demanded by the great and the good of this pathetic business, that events like that as well as screwing up their events by rule abuse, for us also rans and not content with that they are foisting their extreme pondness onto all of us, they should have a summer coastal series to redress the balance. Preferably including somewhere that the water moves about a bit, up and down, so they get the whole surfing thing. Shifting from one year to the next over 10 points is mental as well as extremely irritating and before they start no small club will ever do anything other than run what the 'ah! why? eh?' dictate. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Bootscooter
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 12:17am
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"ah! why? eh?" Made me snigger....
I'm sure the pyag has done as much as they can with all the returns they've received to make this list as accurate as possible. Unfortunatly I was unable to make the PY Seminar at OSC this week, but I have total confidence that all has been done properly. I suspect that the next logical step is for the RYA to produce a separate list for inland/coastal venues, but are there enough separate returns to support an accurate result? As ever, it is down to Clubs to use these numbers as a baseline, then adjust them to suit local conditions.... |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 7:13am
I don't think I would go as far as saying that's justified. There's a definite tendency for classes that are no longer built to look slower in the returns as boats and sails get older, and one could theorise that the more skilled sailors move out of the classes too. Of course, like any new class, what most needs to happen is boats on the water and returns to the RYA so you get a number of your own. If you club has two or three of your class and doesn't make a return to the RYA, maybe someone should volunteer to do it.
Returns from Great Lakes clubs don't have any special influence on the returns over any others. However I shouldn't be suprised if they tend to have a bit of an influence simply because they actually do the returns. I imagine the RYA will be publishing the saints list of who sent returns last year soon: if your club isn't on it then most likely they need somebody to stand up and volunteer to help. If you already have scoring by computer then doing returns is a lot less trouble than it used to be. |
Posted By: chrisg
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 7:29am
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Yep, spot on Jim. The PYAG can only work from the numbers given to it by the clubs using the system properly, i.e. giving something back and not just taking from it. The returning clubs will be published soon, so if your club hasn't made a return badger your sail comm to find out why you aren't on the list. Remember, the more clubs that make returns the stronger the system gets and the better it is for all of us. For those saying the numbers for xyz class are unrealistic, remember, if they are unrealistic on your water your club can and should be making local adjustments. Once again badger your sail comm if you feel your or other classes need an adjustment at your club. The national list is a guide for clubs to use, not set in stone. The great lakes numbers have no influence over the national numbers, other than the fact that as Jim says they are actually in the system. The Great Lakes team uses a different algorithm to work out their numbers. Any races from the great lakes in the national system will be subject to the same sums as any other club race in the national system. Off to the dinghy show now - see you all there?
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Posted By: gbr940
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:02am
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GRF - love the idea of a Sailjuice Summer Coastal Series...I hate "ponds" and as an island nation we have amazing sea sailing and I think you might be onto something about the split between the inland and us coastal lot...it would be great if the RYA PY lot would publish the split so we get an idea on the return and that can also assist on the local adjustments ------------- RS400 GBR1321 |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:23am
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I think i might have been one of those who helped the rs300 get its drop as most of the time i was sailing mine last year i was sailing it to a handicap of anywhere between 900 to 950 the most they worked out one day was 880 which i have to say was impressive but then again sailing on sea with tide can have a great effect on the results ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:35am
Are you the fastest boat somewhere with lots of tide? Because frankly those numbers are ludicrous. Thank goodness the Phantom's come down too....it's always a struggle to hold them on the water in the 300 let alone on handicap.
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:36am
| Surprised no-one's mentioned the 420s going up. Can not believe, having raced against lots of them in lots of conditions this winter, that they are now meant to be slower than the 2K. |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:40am
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At Garafham they both currently sail on 855, along with us in the B14- means there's a sort of level-rating sub class. Obviously performance does vary through the conditions, but it's better than nothing. Something you accept when you go high performance is that club racing means spreadsheets. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:44am
if it's windy then the 420 is one of the original 'bandits'... if it's anything less than tree-levelling windy it's stupidly boring and awful, IMO. Why it continues when the 29er exists as a much more pleasant alternative, is frankly beyond me
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Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:53am
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Surprised that the Laser 2000 hasn't moved, off such a big sample, it's strange to me that it still rates as slightly slower than the Laser, when in my experience it's possible to get one round the average RTC or WL course quicker in light-to-medium conditions, only really suffers if there's lots of tight reaching. N12 still looks good for it's PY, if you can afford a good one and the OOD doesn't set long dead-runs in lots of breeze!
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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 9:21am
I have a Laser Radial for sale if anyone is interested. Plus 7 points to the handicap must make it an attractive proposition  And I will not swap it for a Streaker before anyone asks... ------------- Bonnie Lass Contender 1764 |
Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 10:58am
Matt its a bit more like getting up to three knots of tide upwind in the 300 against lasers they dont have a chance and yes most of the time i could hold onto the 600 all the way round the course only when it was really windy it got away ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 11:36am
If memory serves the Radial did not change last year but the full rig did. I think the gap is now back to what it was. Still good to see the Laser (which has always been a good average boat but never really excelling) being given a change. Probably easier to change it rather than change everything else around it! As for the comments about a 2k being faster than a Laser not at Hunts they are not even with helms/crews of comparible skill. The 2k always loses out on the run. In most winds I can pretty much keep up with an RS200 (as long as there is a run in the course) and the guy who sails that is much better than me. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 11:40am
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Which just shows how the club based approach produces a personal handicap. On the HISC handicap which accounts for that sort of tide the comparison with the Lasers in those numbers is about right. And feeding those numbers in without a correction for extreme tide could well skew the numbers. But the 600 should also be absolutely destroying you upwind, reaching and only on a run where it can't ease beyond the shrouds should you be able to hold it. I'd like to see the stats underpinning the 300 change. |
Posted By: JohnW
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 4:02pm
Looks like I need to loose another 7Kg then, (Alb -7) or perhaps just a couple fewer duff tacks. ------------- |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 4:32pm
Given that it's more a question of %age reduction of displacement, you'll need to lose more than that off an Albacore! That said, with a few exceptions the PY changes are less than 1%, which isn't going to change much, given that the corrected time spread in a PY race can easily be 20%, although admittedly the top contenders (small 'c') will usually be within a few percent of each other. ------------- http://www.wilsoniansc.org.uk" rel="nofollow - Wilsonian SC http://www.3000class.org.uk" rel="nofollow - 3000 Class |
Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:27pm
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The standout change for me is the miracle which at 1200 puts it almost 60pts slower than a Grad!
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:47pm
Didn't they both sail off 124 in old money? Hard to believe a 5% performance difference given that in the days when those handicaps were derived there were many many more Grads and Miracles routinely sailing.
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Posted By: craiggo
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:53pm
| Matt, that was my memory as well. Sure the new sailplan has made the grad a bit quicker but the miracle hasn't dropped back 60pts in terms of actual speed. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 8:56pm
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OK can someone up with PY explain what this is meant to mean: ""If a boat is consistently used as a youth training boat within club sailing then it will never really be sailed to a high consistent level. On the other hand a class which is more actively sailed in open meetings, where sailors get to test their skills more keenly the average club boat may be sailed to a higher level than average." This will result in certain classes having a higher than average performance factor and others a lower average, meaning that classes will continually over achieve against the RYA published number and others under. The method of collecting the data from the clubs has meant that the Portsmouth Number list published this year is closer to the National Average performance factor of each of the classes, but it's important to note that this will need to be tweaked and adjusted for each clubs racing to allow for their own local adjustment factors. On its own, the PN list will give an excellent starting point for club racing but will need to be tweaked locally for club racing. Because I read that as implying that you need to tweak for Crew Skill Factor....not local conditions. It also reads to me that the National Average is derived from an average of averages (each Club's input) which is not quite the same thing. Is that true? Is the system reliant on club statistical analysis which will be of varied quality, not really be able to interpret the distribution properly and not recognise the influence of factors like 3 knots of tide in Rockhoppers' post. |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 9:25pm
OK - I guess I did know that having it was always based on Club's recommendations - but I thought/hoped the availability of more data through the web system might start to iron that out. The specimen race example on the RYA website example is quite scary in its over simplicity. Please tell me the Sailracer site for the data can be more clever. I accept the fact that there was too much inertia - but just how are the recommendations judged against one another?
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Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 10:29pm
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"Because I read that as implying that you need to tweak for Crew Skill Factor....not local conditions." I agree it seems to read that way. But if the results form class X at your club are consistently below the "National Average" and you suspect that part of the problem is that the sailors in that club class are not partiuclarly good but there may also be some local conditions that diaadvantage the class, how do you put a value on each of these to produce a "fair" local handicap?
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Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 10:58pm
Or to put it another way: When you correct for both the local conditions and the CSF and feed it in to a national average of averages (based on only reommendations? or all results?) how is what you have done damped so as not to skew? I'm sure one of the Statos will be along to tell us when they get back from the show.
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Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 11:09pm
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The whole thing is just smoke and mirrors. They don't have enough sample data to get the sort of precision they're claiming. That would require at least 1 million returns per class. And those returns would have to be different individual boats not the same few boats week in and week out. It's marginal whether there's enough data even for the Laser to justify two digits of precision. For the rest it's laughable. There is an argument that because we're dealing with a finite set then if all clubs submitted all returns we could get accurate figures from that. It's akin to asking the question "what is average height of the members of my family" and then measuring them. You can answer that to whatever precision you instrument measures height. It doesn't matter if there three or thirty three people in the set. Because you measured them all then you get the answer for the whole group. This differs from trying to measure the average height of an adult human where sample size is hugely important in determining the degree of accuracy of your results. To get two significant figures of accuracy (e.g., to be reasonably certain that your result starts with 10 rather than 11) you need a minimum of 10,000 individual samples (see first paragaraph). The whole thing is a total joke. And that's without trying to account for local conditions or class demographics. ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 02 Mar 13 at 11:39pm
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Yes - that's what I though about sampel size. But when I read the website it doesn't seem to be about precision, more about trends, and I can understand how trends feed a particular 0.3% correction fro example, which might otherwise seem to be imply precision. What I don't get is the sudden appearance of a "trend". For example in the case of one of my boats - the 300, stable at 1000 sudden 0.5% drop. And no particular bandit allegations. This implies a difference of approach - which is kind of introduced by the RYA Press release, but not explained in any meaningful way.
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Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 6:56am
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It might be that the people sailing them now in club races have improved and stopped falling over.Also it would depend on what the weather was like like last year if say most of the time the conditions favoured a boat then it would sail above its handicap have you not thought about that ? I know most of the time last year i sailed my 300 it was about 10 to 15 knots which is perfect (on the sea) sailing conditions hence the numbers that our club worked out for me.If i had kept the boat for this season the club was going to give me my own handicap like they did in the past when someone else in my club had one a few years ago. Our tide effect changes every day springs neaps and how much wind you get from each direction can have great effect on the tide giving you almost an extra knot at some times. ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: AlexM
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 7:07am
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At our place the 300 is currently sailing off 982 and still doing very well! I've collected as many races I could from the last five years and we've got 5-6 crews and not once has any of them sailed over the h'cap of 1000. They are currently averaging 940. ------------- |
Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 7:50am
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Re: Youth Training classes.
My expectations, based on pure guess work, is that the good people spend all their time training or sailing in Open Meetings. Therefore relatively few "good" handicap results. While the not so quick people who are not in the squads do race at club level and thus bring the expected speed down (and handicap up). |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 10:08am
I'll have to go and find my statistics lecturer and tell him he was lying to me then. But what sort of precision do you think the RYA are claiming? I don't think anyone's going to claim that the 3rd/4th digit is spectacularly accurate, nor, indeed, if you do some what ifs over a series of club results, will you find it makes much difference. Personally I'd rather the numbers were rounded off to the nearest 5 points. The story is that back in the 70s and 80s the numbers had to be twice reworked because the increasing speed of the fastest multihulls meant there was insufficient granularity at the fast end. I'll *guess* that the folks at the time thought "b******r this for a game of soldiers" and multiplied by roughly ten so it would never be necessary again. Although its worked in that we'll never again need to seek a new base, I think the result is unfortunate because it causes people to think think that the difference between 1024 and 1025 is in any way important. And yes, speaking personally, I think Rockhopper is right and if the numbers are changed too dynamically year on year there is a definite possibility of chasing last year's weather, rather than reflecting overall performance. I think you could also make the argument that any corrected times within a given range ought to be treated as a tie, but if you think through the implications of that on a large bunch of close finishers you end up with insanity! |
Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 10:40am
Alex - you've sailed a 300 haven't you? Surely you recognise that 940 is pure BS. It's a 14 foot, sitting out singlehander for goodness sake. What do 600s sail to at your club? Because to put a 300 within 20 handicap points of them is insane. What club are you at? I'd be interested to see what the relative standards are. The problem with all of this is that there is no benchmark. Are the 300s sailing to 940 or, for example, the 400s to 1010. Cos it's easier to squeeze a 50 point slowing out of a boat than a 50 point faster!
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 1:27pm
I think the RYA needs to explain what that means. We also need a clear statement that the PY is intended to reflect the potential best performance of a boat complying to the class rules, or some other well-defined fundamental aim to the scheme. The averaging and mumbo-jumbo seem to be moving toward the idea that everyone should have an equal chance of winnng. That either needs to be out in the open or firmly kicked off the pitch. I feel that the perpetual changing of numbers is damaging PY racing. When people start thinking 'I should have won last year's series, because my PY was wrong, look they've changed it now' it will reduce and respect for the results. We also need a 'best guess' number published for any class ever raced. There are some significant classes missing now. |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 3:04pm
Maybe your stats lecturer should go head-to-head with my stats lecturer (if he's still alive!!). We might witness the birth of a new sport - Octogenarian Statistician Freestyle Wrestling  ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 5:54pm
That is not, and never has been, how PY numbers are calculated. If you take Ben Ainslee and stick him in every boat in every coidition you might achieve that. But thats not what the PY aims to do. PY accepts that an optimist is less likely to be sailed as well as say an RS400, and *tries* to give both the same chance of winning. You may think thats wrong.
Its in the open. Its not strictly that everyone should have the same chance of winning, its that an average sailor (I think the standard is actually a sailor in the middle 66% of the results but don't quote me on that) sailing 2 different boats should have an equal chance of winning. The method that clubs use to submit their PY result is now via pys.org.uk which effectively calculates the PY the sailor would have needed to achieve the same result as a respectable standard PY, but the CLUB tells thhe site if thats the right PY to then adopt... ...i.e. they look at MY result and say 'but he's a crap sailor' so they don't suggest changing the PY for my result...
Then they should be complaining to their club that they aren't adjusting PY numbers in year like the RYA tells them to:
Personally I'd rather have something like the Yachts are getting...
I don't do club updates these days but I *think* pys.org.uk may do that for clubs using data from other clubs data... ...but you need to really watch the outcome from that. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 6:12pm
My point entirely in our previous discussion where I tried to cite the 300 as just such a standard in that it has been around a while, needs to be sailed by folk who know what they're doing, has enough volume not to be to affected by the fresh v salt water issue, it's handicap had been static for ever (Well all the time I've been vaguely interested in sailing dinghies. In order to make a system like this work, you have to have a standard that doesn't change, a boat that come what may over a certain distance per wind strength and stock course will take one hour to complete. Or some similar standard that never changes, all this changing of some key craft in relation to others, but not to all, just makes matters worse. I can tell you there's a bunch of very disappointed sailors down at our lake over the news that the Miracle has had another advantageous hike and as if to prove it, the one that showed up today, didn't even make the start, shuffled about at the back and still won against a mix of lasers, solos, and streakers in a reasonable breeze and the fact that it and the graduate a similar boat from bygone times are now 60 pointd different where once they sailed off the same handicap? It's really becoming worse, not better. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 6:48pm
SO - your club needs to punish their PY. They are supposed to, and should be if the conditions at your club for whatever reason mean the boat is not sailing to its PY. They should then submit a proposed number for next year... |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 6:55pm
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And if the club is run by the Miracle sailors?
It's a mistake to risk an entire system by putting it at the mercy of small club politics, these sort of things need deciding by a national panel, no returns, no pfaffing about, two round robin races with invited helms a year, one on the sea, one on a lake and a group that have no links to the 'Industry', not jockeys, not builders, not dealers, not even exceptional sailors, to oversee the system and make small corrections annually, with the power to omit new creations and send them off to find a new boat name and re-apply when 'they' the blagging lipstickers attempt to pervert the system for financial gain. So the new 'Phantom' has to be called something else, as would the V3000, the new Streaker, Graduate, even the Solo. There needs to be an end to the Anarchy, the RYA should grow a pair and deal with it, harshly or risk the whole thing breaking down. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: polc1410
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 7:19pm
Some options:
Size of lake affects it too. As does boat configuration etc. It's be far better to use a calculated method but that isn't precise enough and will lead to people designing boats to get slower PYs and perform better. We actually need what the cruisers have just got - a number that self adjusts.
Where do you draw the line. If a boat was originally transom main sheeted and can now centre main does it need scored seperately? Is the Graduate change all the new mainsail? Or is it that the new mainsail encouraged more people to replace their main and so its that people are sailing with newer sails rather than a new sail cloth?
NO NO NO NO - CLUB SAILORS NEED TO GROW A PAIR and tell their clubs to adjust the PY for their club and sailors results. This is NOT the RYA getting it wrong it is YOUR CLUB not using the PY scheme the way it is designed to be used. Its too easy to blame the RYA. |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 7:44pm
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Exactly- locally adjust if it's 'wrong' for your water.
As for the 300- considering the new carbon boom that'll make those skethcy gybes easier and the fact there was a new cheaper sail design only a few seasons, 5 points doesn't seem that harsh to me. ------------- |
Posted By: SoggyBadger
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 7:47pm
A pair of what? ------------- Best wishes from deep in the woods SB |
Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 7:50pm
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I think the problem for club sailing committees is that they rarely have enough boats in any one class (except for Club fleets - Laser and Solo in our club) to make a properly informed decision on changing the PY. I'm sure that is why many clubs find it very difficult to justify any change from the RYA numbers. Even if you want to change the PY of boats with lots of numbers, I think you ought to have an informed reason why you are doing it, otherwise you open yourself to all sorts of criticism. End result is that it is very difficult for clubs to change PYs for any boat. I'm hoping that by submitting actual race times the whole Club PY thing should be irrelevant to the RYA PY calculations and that would be a good thing given the above.
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Posted By: Rockhopper
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 7:58pm
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I used to sail the vareo fine on its first handicap of 1038 now with that dropping back to 1052 i would love to have another one of those.As for 300 i always thought the handicap should have changed that was when i first had one in 2008 after the first few weeks of learning to sail it .Again as i said in a previous post perhaps now the level of people sailing them has gone up because nothing else has changed with the boat and anyway its still not changed much compared to some other classes.And yes i wish i could have another one ------------- Retired now after 35 seasons in a row and time for a rest. 2004 national champ Laser5000 2007,2010,National Champ Rs Vareo |
Posted By: pondmonkey
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 8:00pm
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if they won't change it (whatever the reason) then it's not 'wrong enough' to worry about IMHO. ------------- |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 8:05pm
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No, entirely wrong, it's not for me to complain, I've only just joined the place, my boat is badly rated anyway and my sailing skill is decidedly lacking. They have been there for years, the majority boat is the Miracle, they submit their returns, run good races, they're doing everything just fine, it's a friendly place to winter, I'm certainly not going to stir a potential hornets nest, as it is everyone just laughs at the absurdity that is the RYA system, the joke is on them when it really shouldn't be. That system is broke, end of. Nobody naturally wants to make a fuss, not at that level, 'protest?' you could throw every boat off the lake if you stuck to the letter of the law, nobody wants to protest, that isn't going to fly either. This is the RYA's system, it's either being cowboyed about by some buckaroo's hell bent on whatever agenda they are on, or there are other forces at work all of a sudden, I neither know, nor can be bothered to find out, all I do know is a sudden shift of 10+ points after years of no movement is ridiculous and as I said elsewhere I smell whoever is on an event ego trip with that sailjuice mob. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: ex laser
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 8:29pm
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11 point change is less than 30 second change over the length of a normal race. ie the same as one bad tack. ------------- |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 03 Mar 13 at 8:34pm
There's a very different means of gathering the data coming in now. It should make the system less reliant on the judgement of clubs and more directly based on the data. This has advantages and disadvantages of course. Historically the scheme has often been criticised for not being dynamic enough, and its likely that numbers will be more volatile in future. It would be nice to think that numbers would stay static for many years, but in practice classes change all the time. Lasers, for instance, are going to be a significantly faster than they were twenty years ago because techniques have improved and more coaching means the best techniques are used by more sailors. Other classes have more obvious changes. You'd be amazed by how many classes do have notable changes each year. |