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Measurement cert and handicap racing.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Measurement cert and handicap racing.
    Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Contender443

Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by alstorer

Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:

"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied"

?


I think trialling modifications (within limits) needs to be encouraged in PY racing.
Expecting classes to adopt untried changes isn't great, neither is not changing  because the changes are untried.
The big winter events have often been seen as a show case for new stuff, they should be proud of that and accomodate it in a structured way.
I think lots of classes allow trialling modifications within their own class racing so the rpos / cons can be measured in a racing environment. They usually allow this to happen under the proviso that the tester is not eligible for a result.
 
This certainly hapened in the Contender class when carbon spars were tested. If the mast builder / sailmaker wanted to win he would use alloy spars. If he did not want a result and wanted to test the carbon rig he declared it and was out of the results.
 
This is what should happen in PY handicap events or a set % added to the handicap if a modification is notified. We are trying to stop people turning up with carbon spars when it is not allowed in class or to turn up with more sail area. Remember when the 505s adopted their larger kite. Imagine what would have happened if they had turned up at the Tiger in the days before it was approved and did not declare it.
 
Finally I think the PY committee should set a handicap for a Laser with a Rooster sail as there are plenty of them out there handicap racing. Our club allows them and gives them a handicap. The fact that it is the same as an official Laser sail is just a coincidence...

+1

I can't think why people would think any differently.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Contender443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by RS400atC

Originally posted by alstorer

Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:

"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied"

?


I think trialling modifications (within limits) needs to be encouraged in PY racing.
Expecting classes to adopt untried changes isn't great, neither is not changing  because the changes are untried.
The big winter events have often been seen as a show case for new stuff, they should be proud of that and accomodate it in a structured way.
I think lots of classes allow trialling modifications within their own class racing so the rpos / cons can be measured in a racing environment. They usually allow this to happen under the proviso that the tester is not eligible for a result.
 
This certainly hapened in the Contender class when carbon spars were tested. If the mast builder / sailmaker wanted to win he would use alloy spars. If he did not want a result and wanted to test the carbon rig he declared it and was out of the results.
 
This is what should happen in PY handicap events or a set % added to the handicap if a modification is notified. We are trying to stop people turning up with carbon spars when it is not allowed in class or to turn up with more sail area. Remember when the 505s adopted their larger kite. Imagine what would have happened if they had turned up at the Tiger in the days before it was approved and did not declare it.
 
Finally I think the PY committee should set a handicap for a Laser with a Rooster sail as there are plenty of them out there handicap racing. Our club allows them and gives them a handicap. The fact that it is the same as an official Laser sail is just a coincidence...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by alstorer

Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:

"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied"

?


I think trialling modifications (within limits) needs to be encouraged in PY racing.
Expecting classes to adopt untried changes isn't great, neither is not changing  because the changes are untried.
The big winter events have often been seen as a show case for new stuff, they should be proud of that and accomodate it in a structured way.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 3:13pm
as far as im concerend under the rules if your not in class youre out of it, the wording in the new rules certainly implies you dont have to have a certificate, but that if you have class rules you stick to them, unless you have asked for and been given dispensation by the people running the race.
 
im all for testing new equipment and modifications, but we are a self policing sport and as such should treat each other with respect in regards to fair play and play by the rules.  otherwise its just cheating so you can go pot hunting, a very sad way to conduct yourself imo.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rb_stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by alstorer

Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:

"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied"

?


That is what I would like to see, as I hope that most ROs would simply allow most mods to pass without penalty. However if they believe they should invoke a penalty to play it safe in big handicap events, then I'm also happy for that. 

If you think you can win it means you must be at the high end of your class, which means you should know the class rules inside out, therefore just stick to your class rules.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Blackie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 1:38pm
I suspect there's a bit of text somwhere that says SIs take precedence over other rules when there's a conflict. ie in handicap racing we (B14s) need to do 720 penalty turns asap rather than the 360 when the kite is down that we do in class events...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 1:13pm
I did leave a bit off the extract I quoted which was about pumping rools...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 11:27am

Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:

"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied"

?

-_
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 11:09am
Originally posted by winging it

Realistically the measurement certificate means nothing unless there are scrutineers about and other class members who are vigilant.   There are people who will happily remove their correctors for club or handicap racing, likewise how easy is it in a smod to do a nice little bimble which is out of class?

For my part, I would rather see much more attention given to crimes and misdemeanours involving mark roundings, starting rules, right of way encounters, pumping and other on the water stuff, than I would for the more technical infringements.  That's not to say we should adopt an anything goes approach, but in a sport which badly needs technical development I don't think we should make testing new kit so much more of a crime than not giving a 'lesser' class the on the water rights it is due.

Absolutely!

But there is no need for it to be an issue at all, just a bit of open-ness from some sailors and a bit of forethought from the organisers would help.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote winging it Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 11:03am
Realistically the measurement certificate means nothing unless there are scrutineers about and other class members who are vigilant.   There are people who will happily remove their correctors for club or handicap racing, likewise how easy is it in a smod to do a nice little bimble which is out of class?

For my part, I would rather see much more attention given to crimes and misdemeanours involving mark roundings, starting rules, right of way encounters, pumping and other on the water stuff, than I would for the more technical infringements.  That's not to say we should adopt an anything goes approach, but in a sport which badly needs technical development I don't think we should make testing new kit so much more of a crime than not giving a 'lesser' class the on the water rights it is due.
the same, but different...

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