Measurement cert and handicap racing.
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10697
Printed Date: 18 Jul 25 at 1:56am
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Topic: Measurement cert and handicap racing.
Posted By: hollandsd
Subject: Measurement cert and handicap racing.
Date Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 8:01pm
After reading through most of the advertising with sail numbers thread it has made me ponder the question....
Do I have to have a valid measurement certificate to do handicap racing?
The main argument that seems to have developed is about sails that don't measure, its just as easy to have a hull that's not quite class legal.
In terms of class racing no certificate means no racing when its not an SMOD in general.
Dan.
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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782
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Replies:
Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 8:10pm
1.3 All boats will be required to sail according to their respective class rules
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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"
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Posted By: hollandsd
Date Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 8:14pm
So if class rules includes having a valid measurement certificate......
I've never seen a club or event other than class events asking to see measurement certificates......I would imagine very few people either would bother or actually have a certificate.
Dan
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Laser 184084
Tasar 3501
RS600 698
RS600 782
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Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 8:15pm
Although that's an extract from just one NoR.
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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 9:17pm
RRS 78 is the relevant bit of the rules. There are people who have a (to me bizarre) theory that it switches off in a handicap race.
Its not something that's going to be settled in a forum flaming match, it needs to go officially to the RYA rules folk, but I think its a can of worms no-one fancies opening just in case something ugly crawls out.
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Posted By: robin34024
Date Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 9:53pm
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'I've never seen a club or event other than class events asking to see measurement certificates'
Isn't this like the insurance thing, where if the club ask to see the certificate, the blame is on them, whereas asking the sailor to confirm that they have a certificate by signing the entry form is keeping the blame with the sailor themselves if something is wrong with the boat? I think it stops the club from being held accountable in measurement protests in classes with certificates.
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Posted By: GarethT
Date Posted: 08 Feb 13 at 10:22pm
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There are classes where the certificate is only valid if the owner is a member of the class association. Has anyone ever been protested for not being a member of the CA?
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Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 8:22am
Originally posted by JimC
RRS 78 is the relevant bit of the rules. There are people who have a (to me bizarre) theory that it switches off in a handicap race.
Its not something that's going to be settled in a forum flaming match, it needs to go officially to the RYA rules folk, but I think its a can of worms no-one fancies opening just in case something ugly crawls out. |
I was only thinking there are certain parallels here with the current 'Horse meat' scandal...
Not what it says it is, on the tin!
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Posted By: E.J.
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 10:19am
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"1.3 All boats will be required to sail according to their respective class rules"
There must be some things that dont tranfer from class rules to handicap. In my class events pumping is allowed at 10knts, but I think it would be unfair if I did this in handicap.
This line of thought makes it difficult for an event organiser to pick out what is to be followed from the class rules such as; hull and sail construction, and what is not.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 10:56am
Originally posted by E.J.
"1.3 All boats will be required to sail according to their respective class rules"
There must be some things that dont tranfer from class rules to handicap. In my class events pumping is allowed at 10knts, but I think it would be unfair if I did this in handicap.
This line of thought makes it difficult for an event organiser to pick out what is to be followed from the class rules such as; hull and sail construction, and what is not. |
I think they dealt with the propulsion issue?
But there are other issues, for instance the RS200 has the option of a pole to square-run with the kite, it is described in the class rules and its length limited but banned in class events. In an RS800, the crew may not play the mainsheet upwind in class events, suddenly you have to unscramble class rules from SI's for class events.
I would say the majority of PY sailors nationally are not compliant with class rules, because they are not members of their CA. That may seem like a bad thing, but the system works. The fact that a lot of club racers who want minimal involvement in the class are not dominating the voting means that those who are involved can get on and run the high level stuff to suit the high level sailors. Maybe some classes don't have the balance right, but on the whole, the current state of affairs works ok on the water and it's only forum lawyers who have an issue with it.
For most people, the point of sticking to class rules in PY racing is to get a PY easily, with some credibility behind it. That has been damaged by the esteemed PY committee erasing the numbers for a great number of classes and too much mucking about with the other numbers.
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 11:00am
Originally posted by E.J.
"1.3 All boats will be required to sail according to their respective class rules"
There must be some things that dont tranfer from class rules to handicap. In my class events pumping is allowed at 10knts, but I think it would be unfair if I did this in handicap.
This line of thought makes it difficult for an event organiser to pick out what is to be followed from the class rules such as; hull and sail construction, and what is not. |
Unless you can provide documentary evidence to the contrary, I'd reckon this is more likely to be in the standard sailing instructions for your class, rather than class rules. The two are very separate documents.
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-_
Al
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Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 11:03am
Realistically the measurement certificate means nothing unless there are scrutineers about and other class members who are vigilant. There are people who will happily remove their correctors for club or handicap racing, likewise how easy is it in a smod to do a nice little bimble which is out of class?
For my part, I would rather see much more attention given to crimes and misdemeanours involving mark roundings, starting rules, right of way encounters, pumping and other on the water stuff, than I would for the more technical infringements. That's not to say we should adopt an anything goes approach, but in a sport which badly needs technical development I don't think we should make testing new kit so much more of a crime than not giving a 'lesser' class the on the water rights it is due.
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the same, but different...
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 11:09am
Originally posted by winging it
Realistically the measurement certificate means nothing unless there are scrutineers about and other class members who are vigilant. There are people who will happily remove their correctors for club or handicap racing, likewise how easy is it in a smod to do a nice little bimble which is out of class?
For my part, I would rather see much more attention given to crimes and misdemeanours involving mark roundings, starting rules, right of way encounters, pumping and other on the water stuff, than I would for the more technical infringements. That's not to say we should adopt an anything goes approach, but in a sport which badly needs technical development I don't think we should make testing new kit so much more of a crime than not giving a 'lesser' class the on the water rights it is due.
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Absolutely!
But there is no need for it to be an issue at all, just a bit of open-ness from some sailors and a bit of forethought from the organisers would help.
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Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 11:27am
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Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:
"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied" ?
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-_
Al
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Posted By: Lukepiewalker
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 1:13pm
I did leave a bit off the extract I quoted which was about pumping rools...
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Ex-Finn GBR533 "Pie Hard"
Ex-National 12 3253 "Seawitch"
Ex-National 12 2961 "Curved Air"
Ex-Mirror 59096 "Voodoo Chile"
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Posted By: Blackie
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 1:38pm
I suspect there's a bit of text somwhere that says SIs take precedence over other rules when there's a conflict. ie in handicap racing we (B14s) need to do 720 penalty turns asap rather than the 360 when the kite is down that we do in class events...
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B14 - 764 Admiral Trailers
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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by alstorer
Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:
"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied" ? |
That is what I would like to see, as I hope that most ROs would simply allow most mods to pass without penalty. However if they believe they should invoke a penalty to play it safe in big handicap events, then I'm also happy for that.
If you think you can win it means you must be at the high end of your class, which means you should know the class rules inside out, therefore just stick to your class rules.
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Posted By: Oli
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 3:13pm
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as far as im concerend under the rules if your not in class youre out of it, the wording in the new rules certainly implies you dont have to have a certificate, but that if you have class rules you stick to them, unless you have asked for and been given dispensation by the people running the race. im all for testing new equipment and modifications, but we are a self policing sport and as such should treat each other with respect in regards to fair play and play by the rules. otherwise its just cheating so you can go pot hunting, a very sad way to conduct yourself imo.
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Posted By: RS400atC
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 3:30pm
Originally posted by alstorer
Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:
"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied" ? |
I think trialling modifications (within limits) needs to be encouraged in PY racing.
Expecting classes to adopt untried changes isn't great, neither is not changing because the changes are untried.
The big winter events have often been seen as a show case for new stuff, they should be proud of that and accomodate it in a structured way.
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Posted By: Contender443
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by RS400atC
Originally posted by alstorer
Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:
"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied"
? |
I think trialling modifications (within limits) needs to be encouraged in PY racing.
Expecting classes to adopt untried changes isn't great, neither is not changing because the changes are untried.
The big winter events have often been seen as a show case for new stuff, they should be proud of that and accomodate it in a structured way.
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I think lots of classes allow trialling modifications within their own class racing so the rpos / cons can be measured in a racing environment. They usually allow this to happen under the proviso that the tester is not eligible for a result.
This certainly hapened in the Contender class when carbon spars were tested. If the mast builder / sailmaker wanted to win he would use alloy spars. If he did not want a result and wanted to test the carbon rig he declared it and was out of the results.
This is what should happen in PY handicap events or a set % added to the handicap if a modification is notified. We are trying to stop people turning up with carbon spars when it is not allowed in class or to turn up with more sail area. Remember when the 505s adopted their larger kite. Imagine what would have happened if they had turned up at the Tiger in the days before it was approved and did not declare it.
Finally I think the PY committee should set a handicap for a Laser with a Rooster sail as there are plenty of them out there handicap racing. Our club allows them and gives them a handicap. The fact that it is the same as an official Laser sail is just a coincidence...
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Bonnie Lass Contender 1764
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Posted By: rb_stretch
Date Posted: 09 Feb 13 at 5:29pm
Originally posted by Contender443
Originally posted by RS400atC
Originally posted by alstorer
Perhaps add to the NoR for such events:
"Experimental and out-of-class modifications are permitted; these must be declared on entry and a handicap penalty may be applied"
? |
I think trialling modifications (within limits) needs to be encouraged in PY racing.
Expecting classes to adopt untried changes isn't great, neither is not changing because the changes are untried.
The big winter events have often been seen as a show case for new stuff, they should be proud of that and accomodate it in a structured way.
|
I think lots of classes allow trialling modifications within their own class racing so the rpos / cons can be measured in a racing environment. They usually allow this to happen under the proviso that the tester is not eligible for a result.
This certainly hapened in the Contender class when carbon spars were tested. If the mast builder / sailmaker wanted to win he would use alloy spars. If he did not want a result and wanted to test the carbon rig he declared it and was out of the results.
This is what should happen in PY handicap events or a set % added to the handicap if a modification is notified. We are trying to stop people turning up with carbon spars when it is not allowed in class or to turn up with more sail area. Remember when the 505s adopted their larger kite. Imagine what would have happened if they had turned up at the Tiger in the days before it was approved and did not declare it.
Finally I think the PY committee should set a handicap for a Laser with a Rooster sail as there are plenty of them out there handicap racing. Our club allows them and gives them a handicap. The fact that it is the same as an official Laser sail is just a coincidence... |
+1
I can't think why people would think any differently.
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