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Outer Distance Mark

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Oggie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Oggie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Outer Distance Mark
    Posted: 14 Sep 12 at 10:41pm
I'm new to dinghy racing and trying to learn the rules and tactics.
 
My simple question is...do the same rules that apply to mark rounding also pertain to the Outer Distance Mark at the end of the start line?
 
To elaborate....
In a race last week an incident occured at the start line involving the ODM. The race took place at a sea location with the start line being a transit from the beach extending out to an ODM. At the start all boats were approaching the line on a starboard tack. The line had quite a bias to the windward end. As I approached the start line, slightly ahead of me to port was a boat and the ODM was to starboard but I had room to cross the line between the boat and the ODM. As I approach the line, the boat ahead of me luffed and shouted "windward boat keep clear". If I had luffed to avoid collision I would have hit the ODM. So I maintained course shouting "room at the mark please". The other sailor replied that the ODM did not count as a "mark". Is this true? The course includes the ODM as the last mark of each lap and hence one has to "round" it.
 
Any help to understand the rules in this situation would be much appreciated for this poor confused novice.   
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 2:15am

Learning the Rules - Resources

Racing Rules of Sailing current until 2013

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20092012with2010changes-[8222].pdf

 

The [ISAF] Case Book

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012updatedNov2011-[11669].pdf

 

ISAF Q&As

http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QABookletAugust92012-[13200].pdf

 

RYA Appeals Book

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingRules/Case%20Book%20with%20indexes%20including%202012-2.pdf

 

These electronic versions are particularly useful because they enable you to electronically search for relevant words or phrases.  You might find it useful to download them so you don’t have to go on-line to see them.

The RRS and the ISAF Casebook are binding.

The RYA Appeals, although they will nearly always be followed in the UK, are, strictly speaking, not binding.

The Q&A are advisory only, but can be very helpful.

The RRS contains an index, which is often a good place to start, until you become more familiar with the rules.

As JimC might have already told you, the Definitions in the RRS are critically important:  you need to read and understand them, and, if you have a memory like mine, constantly refer to them as you apply the rules.

The Casebook Section 1 contains Abstracts of Cases by Rule Number.

The RYA Appeals Book Section 2 is similar but it contains both RYA Appeals AND ISAF Cases.

The RYA Appeals Book, at pages 3 to 6 contains a very useful table, listing all the rules, showing alongside them the relevant ISAF Cases and RYA Appeals.

The RYA Appeals Book is, therefore the easiest one to work from initially, but, as any law student will tell you, don’t rely on the head-notes, and once you have located a relevant Appeal or Case, look at the full version in the Appeal book or the Casebook, and, if in doubt, look critically at other relevant appeals and cases.

Particular Problem – Distance or Limit Marks and Starting Marks

 

The apparent question is whether the distance mark was a ‘mark'?

And perhaps a further question, if it was a mark did you or your competitor have an obligation to pass it on a ‘required side’ at the time of the incident?

Here’s how you can answer that question

Read the Definition of mark.

Read the Definition of start.

Read Rules 28 and 31, and the preamble to Section C

Read RYA Appeal 2006/ and Q&A 2010-33.

 

OK, let’s assume it was a mark and a starting mark.

As you have seen, if it was a starting mark, you have no entitlement to mark-room.

But what does apply is rule 16.1 (read that one).  The leeward boat, changing course shall give you room that is (read Definition:  room) the space you need in the existing conditions manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way to keep clear of her.

If, by changing course, the leeward boat does not leave enough space for you to fit between her and the mark, she will break rule 16.1.

 

So, you can now comprehensively answer your own and any future rules questions.

Can’t you <g>.

 

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blueboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 9:29am
Originally posted by Oggie

My simple question is...do the same rules that apply to mark rounding also pertain to the Outer Distance Mark at the end of the start line?


To which the simple answer is "no". When you round it on subsequent laps, then the answer changes to yes.
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PeterG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 10:31am
If, by changing course, the leeward boat does not leave enough space for you to fit between her and the mark, she will break rule 16.1.

Surely, it's not quite that simple. The leeward boat is quite entitled not to leave you space between her and the ODM, provided that she leaves time for you to get out of her way. Getting out of the way could include passing the wrong side of the mark, but it could also mean forcing you into the ODM, since it's not an obstruction.
Peter
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Brass View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by blueboy

Originally posted by Oggie

My simple question is...do the same rules that apply to mark rounding also pertain to the Outer Distance Mark at the end of the start line?


To which the simple answer is "no". When you round it on subsequent laps, then the answer changes to yes.
I disagree.

If the SI say an object is a mark, it is a mark.

At some time during a race, a boat may not be obliged to round or pass the mark on a specified side, but that does not make the object 'not a mark'.  Marks don't blink on and off like traffic lights.

This is the approach taken in RYA 2006/1 and the Q&A, which refer to starting marks, in some circumstances 'not having a required side'.

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blueboy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote blueboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 6:38pm
Oh do stop showing off. I know you like the rules but the OP said:

"I'm new to dinghy racing and trying to learn the rules and tactics."

If you don't like my answer then you try giving an answer to this basic question in two dozen words or fewer. The Part C preamble turns off the mark rounding rules on a start-line. Simple and all a newcomer to racing needs to know.




Edited by blueboy - 15 Sep 12 at 6:46pm
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gordon View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 10:41am
Peter G,

rule 16.1 means that when a right of way boat (in this case a leeward boat) changes course she shal give the other boat room ( the space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seaman like manner) to keep clear. It is not seamanlike to hit a mark! Leeward boat may not luff windward boat on to the mark.

There is a team racing call (call C2)presenting a similar situation at the committee boat.
Gordon
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 11:34am
I'm with Blueboy here on the unnessessary complications being added to this very simple question.

The answer is, no, you can't call for room on the outer distance mark. If you have misjudged your approach, and a boat to leeward can make the gap too small for you to go through, then you have to get out of the way, even if this means going the wrong side of the buoy and going around and starting again. If you force the leeward boat to bear away to avoid a collision, then you have broken the rules and will need to do a 720 (2 circles) before carrying on.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote rodney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by Rupert

I'm with Blueboy here on the unnessessary complications being added to this very simple question.
The answer is, no, you can't call for room on the outer distance mark. If you have misjudged your approach, and a boat to leeward can make the gap too small for you to go through, then you have to get out of the way, even if this means going the wrong side of the buoy and going around and starting again. If you force the leeward boat to bear away to avoid a collision, then you have broken the rules and will need to do a 720 (2 circles) before carrying on.

+1  Smile

Let's not condone barging or everyone will do it and you all know the rules on this, I hope?  Disapprove

I also would expect the windward boat to anticipate that the door will be shut!  The only question here is how fast was the door shut?
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[EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 12:36pm
Trouble is its a very tricky area of the rules, which a lot of people have a very simplistic view of. Like it or not if someone *has* got their nose in the hole you can't just ram them into the committee boat or into a solid mark.
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