Outer Distance Mark
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9827
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 9:06am
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Topic: Outer Distance Mark
Posted By: Oggie
Subject: Outer Distance Mark
Date Posted: 14 Sep 12 at 10:41pm
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I'm new to dinghy racing and trying to learn the rules and tactics. My simple question is...do the same rules that apply to mark rounding also pertain to the Outer Distance Mark at the end of the start line? To elaborate.... In a race last week an incident occured at the start line involving the ODM. The race took place at a sea location with the start line being a transit from the beach extending out to an ODM. At the start all boats were approaching the line on a starboard tack. The line had quite a bias to the windward end. As I approached the start line, slightly ahead of me to port was a boat and the ODM was to starboard but I had room to cross the line between the boat and the ODM. As I approach the line, the boat ahead of me luffed and shouted "windward boat keep clear". If I had luffed to avoid collision I would have hit the ODM. So I maintained course shouting "room at the mark please". The other sailor replied that the ODM did not count as a "mark". Is this true? The course includes the ODM as the last mark of each lap and hence one has to "round" it. Any help to understand the rules in this situation would be much appreciated for this poor confused novice.
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Replies:
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 2:15am
Learning the Rules - Resources
Racing Rules of Sailing current until 2013 http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20092012with2010changes-%5b8222%5d.pdf - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/RRS20092012with2010changes-[8222].pdf The [ISAF] Case Book http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012updatedNov2011-%5b11669%5d.pdf - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012updatedNov2011-[11669].pdf ISAF Q&As http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QABookletAugust92012-%5b13200%5d.pdf - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QABookletAugust92012-[13200].pdf RYA Appeals Book http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingRules/Case%20Book%20with%20indexes%20including%202012-2.pdf - http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/Racing/RacingInformation/RacingRules/Case%20Book%20with%20indexes%20including%202012-2.pdf These electronic versions are particularly useful because they
enable you to electronically search for relevant words or phrases. You might find it useful to download them so
you don’t have to go on-line to see them. The RRS and the ISAF Casebook are binding. The RYA Appeals, although they will nearly always be followed
in the UK, are, strictly speaking, not binding. The Q&A are advisory only, but can be very helpful. The RRS contains an index, which is often a good place to
start, until you become more familiar with the rules. As JimC might have already told you, the Definitions in the
RRS are critically important: you need
to read and understand them, and, if you have a memory like mine, constantly
refer to them as you apply the rules. The Casebook Section 1 contains Abstracts of Cases by Rule
Number. The RYA Appeals Book Section 2 is similar but it contains both RYA Appeals AND ISAF Cases. The RYA Appeals Book, at pages 3 to 6 contains a very useful
table, listing all the rules, showing alongside them the relevant ISAF Cases
and RYA Appeals. The RYA Appeals Book is, therefore the easiest one to work
from initially, but, as any law student will tell you, don’t rely on the head-notes,
and once you have located a relevant Appeal or Case, look at the full version
in the Appeal book or the Casebook, and, if in doubt, look critically at other
relevant appeals and cases. Particular Problem – Distance or Limit Marks and Starting Marks
The apparent question is whether the distance mark was a ‘mark'? And perhaps a further question, if it was a mark did you or your competitor have an obligation
to pass it on a ‘required side’ at the time of the incident? Here’s how you can answer that question Read the Definition of mark. Read the Definition of start. Read Rules 28 and 31, and the preamble to Section C Read RYA Appeal 2006/ and Q&A 2010-33. OK, let’s assume it was a mark and a starting mark. As you have seen, if it was a starting mark, you have no
entitlement to mark-room. But what does apply is rule 16.1 (read that one). The leeward boat, changing course shall give
you room that is (read Definition: room) the space you need in the existing
conditions manoeuvring promptly in a seamanlike way to keep clear of her. If, by changing course, the leeward boat does not leave enough
space for you to fit between her and the mark, she will break rule 16.1. So, you can now comprehensively answer your own and any
future rules questions. Can’t you <g>. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 9:29am
To which the simple answer is "no". When you round it on subsequent laps, then the answer changes to yes. |
Posted By: PeterG
Date Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 10:31am
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If, by changing course, the leeward boat does not leave enough space for you to fit between her and the mark, she will break rule 16.1. Surely, it's not quite that simple. The leeward boat is quite entitled not to leave you space between her and the ODM, provided that she leaves time for you to get out of her way. Getting out of the way could include passing the wrong side of the mark, but it could also mean forcing you into the ODM, since it's not an obstruction. ------------- Peter Ex Cont 707 Ex Laser 189635 DY 59 |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 3:26pm
I disagree. If the SI say an object is a mark, it is a mark. At some time during a race, a boat may not be obliged to round or pass the mark on a specified side, but that does not make the object 'not a mark'. Marks don't blink on and off like traffic lights. This is the approach taken in RYA 2006/1 and the Q&A, which refer to starting marks, in some circumstances 'not having a required side'. |
Posted By: blueboy
Date Posted: 15 Sep 12 at 6:38pm
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Oh do stop showing off. I know you like the rules but the OP said:
"I'm new to dinghy racing and trying to learn the rules and tactics." If you don't like my answer then you try giving an answer to this basic question in two dozen words or fewer. The Part C preamble turns off the mark rounding rules on a start-line. Simple and all a newcomer to racing needs to know. |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 10:41am
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Peter G, rule 16.1 means that when a right of way boat (in this case a leeward boat) changes course she shal give the other boat room ( the space a boat needs in the existing conditions while manoeuvring promptly in a seaman like manner) to keep clear. It is not seamanlike to hit a mark! Leeward boat may not luff windward boat on to the mark. There is a team racing call (call C2)presenting a similar situation at the committee boat. ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 11:34am
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I'm with Blueboy here on the unnessessary complications being added to this very simple question. The answer is, no, you can't call for room on the outer distance mark. If you have misjudged your approach, and a boat to leeward can make the gap too small for you to go through, then you have to get out of the way, even if this means going the wrong side of the buoy and going around and starting again. If you force the leeward boat to bear away to avoid a collision, then you have broken the rules and will need to do a 720 (2 circles) before carrying on. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 12:03pm
+1  Let's not condone barging or everyone will do it and you all know the rules on this, I hope?  I also would expect the windward boat to anticipate that the door will be shut! The only question here is how fast was the door shut? ------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 12:36pm
| Trouble is its a very tricky area of the rules, which a lot of people have a very simplistic view of. Like it or not if someone *has* got their nose in the hole you can't just ram them into the committee boat or into a solid mark. |
Posted By: rodney
Date Posted: 16 Sep 12 at 1:04pm
I agree but recently in France I spotted at least 6 boats lining up for a non existent gap by the committee boat. Oggie says he is new to dinghy racing and I would suggest that he takes care to avoid getting into this situation. The fact that you can't just ram people into the committee boat is covered by giving room to keep clear but it doesn't mean they will. My advice is to avoid the trap unless you are sure that you are perfectly lined up with no risks of being stuffed up into the mark or committee boat. I have lost count of the number of times that I have been perfectly lined up and people have barged in and forced me to bear away to avoid damage which also is not always possible on a crowded start line. Thank god for port biased lines 
I have given that a little more thought now and guess that the advise should not, necessarily, be what rights one has but also the sensible action to avoid getting into a difficult situation. I remember The Art of Course sailing by Graham Green where I read something like 'here lies the body of Harold Day who insisted on his right of way' The reality is that if you approach the starboard start mark (normally a committee boat) from above the lay line it's likely that you will be obliged to go wrong side of the mark or end up having to do a 720. Even below the lay line on a crowded, starboard biased, line you may get squeezed out. Better to go just a few lengths down the line than get into all sorts of trouble. Remember that only one boat ever gets the perfect start at the favoured end of the line.
------------- Rodney Cobb Suntouched Sailboats Limited http://www.suntouched.co.uk" rel="nofollow - http://www.suntouched.co.uk [EMAIL=rodney@suntouched.co.uk">rodney@suntouched.co.uk |
Posted By: andy101
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 5:16pm
| Spithill seemed to get away with putting Coutts into the Commitee boat recently without any penalty from memory, with damage done & frankly dangerous at the speed these boats move at for both those on the Commitee boat and onboard Coutts boat |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 5:59pm
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Spithill didn't put Coutts into the committee boat. Coutts was barging, but there was actually enough of a gap for him to get through. Problem was his approach was too high and he couldn't get the boat to bear off fast enough. Much more of a problem, of course, with an ACWS style reaching start. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: andy101
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 7:53pm
| All the comment at the time suggested Spithill shut him out ie at that speed put him into the Commitee boat although looking at the video again there were boats below Spithill as well. |
Posted By: Oggie
Date Posted: 17 Sep 12 at 10:37pm
| Thanks everyone for the various references and experiences relating to the treatment of the Outer Distance Mark. I think I'll keep away from the extremeties of the start line in the near future. |
Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 18 Sep 12 at 12:39am
You should have the applicable rules sussed by now.
Don't shy away from starting at the right place: if that's an end near one of the starting marks, you need to be prepared to mix it with other boats, and develop your boat handling, judgement and application of the rules to enable you to get the best start possible.
Read the books:
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Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 18 Sep 12 at 8:40am
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The main skill to learn is how to stop your boat suddenly! If you can do that, and realize that the gap you were going for no longer exists, then you can stop, wait a few seconds for a new gap to appear, and then accellerate (another good skill to learn!) and go, without having to sail a big loop to get out of the way. I'm pretty sure that back issues of Y&Y have articles by John Emmet on how to do such things, or there are youtube clips, no doubt. Then go practice without lots of other boats around... Using a mark as a point of reference is useful.
------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |