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How Much Room at Leeward Mark?
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redman View Drop Down
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Posts: 26 		Post Options Post Options   Quote redman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: How Much Room at Leeward Mark?
    Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 7:10am

How much room is enough room when you are at a leeward mark?  I often hear boats calling for water and the response is “How much water do you want?”.  I’ve been in the situation where a boat I have been avoiding, as they have an inside overlap, sails really wide at the leeward mark so they can be hard on the breeze when they round the mark allowing them to sail high on the new beat and avoid the dirty air of the boats in front.  Conversely, when I’ve been the inside boat I’ve had those giving me water leaving just enough room so I can fit around and no more, giving me no room to come up on to the breeze early.

 The rules say that the inside boat must be given room to sail to and around the mark, and that they must not impede another boat by sailing below its proper course.  So how much room in reality should be provided?  Things get more complicated when a gybe is required at the leeward mark as more room is needed to get around it.
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Quagers View Drop Down
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Posts: 279 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Quagers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 7:44am
The rules allow for a seaman like rounding, and this is generally accepted to mean a wide in tight out approach. 
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Posts: 337 		Post Options Post Options   Quote ChrisJ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 8:39am
The rules:
"say that the inside boat must be given room to sail to and around the mark".
"allow for a seaman like rounding, and this is generally accepted to mean a wide in tight out approach".

Of course, the rules say BOTH of these, and they ARE DIFFERENT.

If you are running into the buoy on port, and you call for water from someone on starboard, then the rules say TO the mark: i.e. no wide in and tight out allowed.
If you are both on the same gybe, and all you need to do is to harden up and around the buoy, then a seaman like rounding (wide in, tight out) can be sailed by the inside boat.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 8:45am
Originally posted by Quagers

The rules allow for a seaman like rounding, and this is generally accepted to mean a wide in tight out approach. 

Sorry the above is NOT correct (there was a lengthy discussion in the rules thread some time back about this very subject).

The rules allow for 'room to sail to the mark' and then 'proper course at the mark'.

This means (if all sailors were born equal) that at the mark and nice smooth rounding to the 'proper course' for the next leg whether that be on to a reach or all the way up to close hauled depending on what the next leg is.

If you feel you have given plenty of room and the other sailor did not sail their proper course at the mark then you should protest but you will need a reliable witness in order to prove you met your obligations. There is nothing to stop the inside boat making a slow rounding to force you off to leeward of them so they can feed you dirty air on the next leg. 

This is why (sometimes) getting the inside option at a mark is an absolute must and you see people sailing higher and higher on a reach/running leg in order to achieve this. There are other tactics you may wish to employ to counter these but that is a whole new discussion.


Edited by jeffers - 11 Apr 12 at 8:47am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 9:01am
I'm no expert on this complicated area of the rules, but chaps, isn't the crucial distinction whether you have mark room but *not* right of way, or mark room *and* right of way.
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Stuart O View Drop Down
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Posts: 514 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Stuart O Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 11:10am
Explain Jim...my understanding at a leeward mark within the zone there is no right of way issues, you either have an overlap or you dont RRS 18.1...if there is room has to be given if no overlap no room required. Always a PC nightmare when looking at different angles of approach
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Stuart O

Explain Jim...my understanding at a leeward mark within the zone there is no right of way issues, you either have an overlap or you dont RRS 18.1...if there is room has to be given if no overlap no room required. Always a PC nightmare when looking at different angles of approach

Correct if you are inside and overlapped when the closest boat reaches 'the zone' (defined as 3 BL but can be varied to 2 or 4 by SIs) you are entitled to 'mark room' which is 'room to sail to' then 'proper course at'. This rule is switched off when the boats are 'on a beat to windward' though to prevent port tack boats pushing in (and creating dangerous situations).

Always difficult and always why boats that sail angles will generally position themselves so they approach the mark from the relevant side to ensure they get an inside overlap. This can happen from quite some distance out.
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G.R.F. View Drop Down
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Posts: 4028 		Post Options Post Options   Quote G.R.F. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 12:34pm
I'm going to need entire boat lengths, with my 3.2mtr wide device, can't see anyone being happy to give me room inside..
https://www.ease-distribution.com/
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alstorer View Drop Down
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Posts: 2899 		Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 1:08pm
Graeme- that's just tough for them, isn't it? it's room for the inside boat, not the amount of room the outside boat would need if it was in the inside. Don't go round outside a winged beast.
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Posts: 1037 		Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 1:22pm
A wide-in tight-out rounding is not a seamanlike rounding but a tactical rounding. Only a right of way boat can sail a tactical rounding.

Room to sail to the mark is room to sail to a position beside the mark from which a boat can then change course to sail round the mark. As always when room is under consideration this means the space needed in the existing conditions while manoeuvring in a seamanlike way.

Rule 18 does not switch off any of the rules of Part 2 sections A and section B. Under 18.5 a boat breaking a rule of Part A ((10,11,12,13) as a result of another boat failing to give mark-room to which she is entitled is exonerated.

If you are a keep clear boat entitled to mark room you must sail straight to the mark from the point at which you entered the zone. If you prefer to go wide then you will not be exonerated if you break a rule of Part A.

Google ISAF Q&A 2009-22

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