How Much Room at Leeward Mark?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: General
Forum Name: Racing Rules
Forum Discription: Discuss the rules and your interpretations here
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9196
Printed Date: 29 Jun 25 at 4:21am
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Topic: How Much Room at Leeward Mark?
Posted By: redman
Subject: How Much Room at Leeward Mark?
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 7:10am
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How much room is enough room when you are at a leeward mark? I often hear boats calling for water and the response is “How much water do you want?”. I’ve been in the situation where a boat I have been avoiding, as they have an inside overlap, sails really wide at the leeward mark so they can be hard on the breeze when they round the mark allowing them to sail high on the new beat and avoid the dirty air of the boats in front. Conversely, when I’ve been the inside boat I’ve had those giving me water leaving just enough room so I can fit around and no more, giving me no room to come up on to the breeze early. The rules say that the inside boat must be given room to sail to and around the mark, and that they must not impede another boat by sailing below its proper course. So how much room in reality should be provided? Things get more complicated when a gybe is required at the leeward mark as more room is needed to get around it. ------------- REDMAN |
Replies:
Posted By: Quagers
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 7:44am
| The rules allow for a seaman like rounding, and this is generally accepted to mean a wide in tight out approach. |
Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 8:39am
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The rules:
"say that the inside boat must be given room to sail to and around the mark". "allow for a seaman like rounding, and this is generally accepted to mean a wide in tight out approach". Of course, the rules say BOTH of these, and they ARE DIFFERENT. If you are running into the buoy on port, and you call for water from someone on starboard, then the rules say TO the mark: i.e. no wide in and tight out allowed. If you are both on the same gybe, and all you need to do is to harden up and around the buoy, then a seaman like rounding (wide in, tight out) can be sailed by the inside boat. |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 8:45am
Sorry the above is NOT correct (there was a lengthy discussion in the rules thread some time back about this very subject). This means (if all sailors were born equal) that at the mark and nice smooth rounding to the 'proper course' for the next leg whether that be on to a reach or all the way up to close hauled depending on what the next leg is. If you feel you have given plenty of room and the other sailor did not sail their proper course at the mark then you should protest but you will need a reliable witness in order to prove you met your obligations. There is nothing to stop the inside boat making a slow rounding to force you off to leeward of them so they can feed you dirty air on the next leg. This is why (sometimes) getting the inside option at a mark is an absolute must and you see people sailing higher and higher on a reach/running leg in order to achieve this. There are other tactics you may wish to employ to counter these but that is a whole new discussion.
------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 9:01am
| I'm no expert on this complicated area of the rules, but chaps, isn't the crucial distinction whether you have mark room but *not* right of way, or mark room *and* right of way. |
Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 11:10am
| Explain Jim...my understanding at a leeward mark within the zone there is no right of way issues, you either have an overlap or you dont RRS 18.1...if there is room has to be given if no overlap no room required. Always a PC nightmare when looking at different angles of approach |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 12:09pm
Correct if you are inside and overlapped when the closest boat reaches 'the zone' (defined as 3 BL but can be varied to 2 or 4 by SIs) you are entitled to 'mark room' which is 'room to sail to' then 'proper course at'. This rule is switched off when the boats are 'on a beat to windward' though to prevent port tack boats pushing in (and creating dangerous situations). Always difficult and always why boats that sail angles will generally position themselves so they approach the mark from the relevant side to ensure they get an inside overlap. This can happen from quite some distance out. ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 12:34pm
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I'm going to need entire boat lengths, with my 3.2mtr wide device, can't see anyone being happy to give me room inside.. ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: alstorer
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 1:08pm
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Graeme- that's just tough for them, isn't it? it's room for the inside boat, not the amount of room the outside boat would need if it was in the inside. Don't go round outside a winged beast. ------------- -_ Al |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 1:22pm
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A wide-in tight-out rounding is not a seamanlike rounding but a tactical rounding. Only a right of way boat can sail a tactical rounding. Room to sail to the mark is room to sail to a position beside the mark from which a boat can then change course to sail round the mark. As always when room is under consideration this means the space needed in the existing conditions while manoeuvring in a seamanlike way. Rule 18 does not switch off any of the rules of Part 2 sections A and section B. Under 18.5 a boat breaking a rule of Part A ((10,11,12,13) as a result of another boat failing to give mark-room to which she is entitled is exonerated. If you are a keep clear boat entitled to mark room you must sail straight to the mark from the point at which you entered the zone. If you prefer to go wide then you will not be exonerated if you break a rule of Part A. Google ISAF Q&A 2009-22 Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: redman
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 1:52pm
Thanks Gordon - that's a magic response. Here is a link to the very relevant ISAF Q@A 2009-22 that you mention. http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2009022-%5B7004%5D.pdf - http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/QA2009022-[7004].pdf If anyone can clear up one thing that is confusing me: what is the difference between a keep clear boat and a boat that is entitled to mark room? I would of thought that if you do not have water (no inside overlap) then you are not entitled to Mark room and are the keep clear boat. Conversely, if you do have water (an inside overlap) then you are entitled to mark room and the other boat is the keep clear boat. How can you both have mark room and be the keep clear boat at the same time?? ------------- REDMAN |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 2:22pm
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If you are the leeward boat approaching a mark where you will be bearing away, then you will be both RoW boat, and have mark room. If you are leeward boat approaching a mark where you will be luffing up, then the windward boat you are overlapped with will have mark room, whilst you remain RoW boat. There are plenty of other occasions too, but that one is easy to visualize. Edit: Unless I've been getting it wrong all these years... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 11 Apr 12 at 6:16pm
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A boat is a keep clear boat when one of the 4 rules of Part 2 Section A apply to that boat - when a boat is on port and another is on starboard, when a boat is overlapped to windward, or clear astern or tacking. Rules 15,16 and 17 put obligations on a right of way boat that limit what they can do - they must give room to a keep clear boat under clearly defined circumstances. A boat is entitled to mark-room when they are overlapped on the inside or clear ahead near or at a mark. This changes very little for a boat that also has right of way, but when a keep clear boat is entitled to mark room (for instance overlapped to windward but on the inside) this imposes a restrictionon what the ROW boat outside can do. The boat entitled to mark-room is entitled to rom to sail to the mark and sail her proper course when at the mark. Hope this is clear Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: redman
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 1:00am
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OK – I think I’m just about there. Let’s have a go and see if I’ve got it.
When approaching a port rounding leeward mark (leave the mark to port) on port tack (no gybe required) and two boats are overlapped, the windward boat is the give way boat. The leeward boat is the right of way boat but her right of way is limited by the fact that she must give the windward (overlapped) boat mark room. In this case only enough room to sail to and around the mark is required. The windward overlapped boat is not entitled to make a tactical rounding.
When approaching a port rounding leeward mark on Starboard (gybe required) and two boats are overlapped, the windward boat is the give way boat. The leeward boat is the right of way boat and is entitled to mark room. As she has both right of way and mark room entitlement, she can make a tactical rounding, but before the gybe she is limited by rule 18.4 to have to sail her proper course.
Does this sound like I have it right? ------------- REDMAN |
Posted By: gordon
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 7:41am
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Simple - isn't it. All that anyone needs to do is read the rule book. Would that more sailors did so! Gordon ------------- Gordon |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 8:25am
| I doubt I would really call it simple, but attempting to legislate for every possible combination of boats approaching a mark is fearfully ambitious when you think about it... It's amazing we manage it at all really. |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 9:07am
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Well you learn something new every day. I thought the overlap had to be a physical overlap not three boat lengths, it's a good job the Laser I didn't give much room to on Saturday knows the rules even less well than I do then! ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 10:39am
The overlap needs to be physical (if that is the right word, you don't have to have rammed them!), when the forward most part of the 1st boat is 3 boat lengths away from the mark. ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: Kev M
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 11:03am
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Thanks Rupert, that makes more sense. ------------- Successfully confusing ambition with ability since 1980. |
Posted By: G.R.F.
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 12:08pm
Simple  ?If only that were so, just having waves about, you surf down one, establish a clear over lap, hail for water only to slip down the back of the wave in front by the time they look round.  Just one of dozens of scenarios that gets the door slammed on you... ------------- https://www.ease-distribution.com/" rel="nofollow - https://www.ease-distribution.com/ |
Posted By: Rupert
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 12:13pm
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The rule is simple, it is the carrying out that is hard, starting with "where the hell is 3 boat lengths?" Strange thing is, 3 boat lengths is much further from the mark if one is on the verge of loosing an overlap than it is if one is trying to gain one... ------------- Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686 |
Posted By: redman
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 2:16pm
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Right, sounds like I've got this one under control. A big thanks to everyone for their help, especially Gordon. I'm very curious as to why 18.4 switches off if the leeward mark is a gate, but I'm going to let that one go as I at least now understand the rule. I agree that sailors should spend more time reading the rules. The problem is that to really understand them you have to discuss them, and it's very hard to do that at a club. Everyone just caves in to the opinions of whoever the best/most experienced sailor is. Thank goodness for internet forums! I have a similar query around how much room is needed to "Initially give the other boat room to keep clear" but I might go and read the rules again and then raise another thread if I have any questions. Thanks again. ------------- REDMAN |
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 12 Apr 12 at 3:37pm
Probably the least read and most important part of the rules is the Definitions section, at the end of the ISAF publication and (much more sensibly) at the beginning of the RYA one. |