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Starting - Warning when boats are OCS pre-start |
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sargesail 
Really should get out more 
Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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 Topic: Starting - Warning when boats are OCS pre-startPosted: 27 Sep 11 at 8:52pm |
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What do people think about the practice of using a signal before the start (either X or sometimes a light) to indicate that a boat is On Course Side before the start signal?
If the signal is not being shown/made at the gun can the Race Officer score a boat OCS? Under what circumstances?
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Brass
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Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 11 at 9:58pm |
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Does anyone have copies of the old RYA RO's Newsletter articles and letters which discussed this topic 'Use of the V Flag'?
RYA has removed them from their Website.
If so can you post or message them to me.
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ChrisJ
Far too distracted from work 
Joined: 07 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 337 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 11 at 9:58pm |
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PURELY as a guide only. Yes it can work.
BUT it should not change the rules: over the line = OCS. At the last moment, the Race Officer could well be too busy to show the extra signal. Or it might have got broken or dropped, or there are other things around. As a guide to know how close to the line you are with 20 seconds to go, it can be very useful. |
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sargesail
Really should get out more
Joined: 14 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1459 |
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Posted: 27 Sep 11 at 10:39pm |
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Chris - I'm over it enough now....to ask the question and see what people think.
But I'll put it the other way - unless it's done properly and suitably resourced such that the risk of not showing the signal is minimal then it shouldn't be used.
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 28 Sep 11 at 7:25am |
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There is no requirement at all for the RO to warn a boat that is OCS and introducing something is risky to say the least (in case the system fails for some reason).
The start line is one of the skills that seperates a good sailor from a not so good sailor. If you get the start right you can often get away from the fleet. if not you have to fight your way through.
Jusging if you are over ot not is also a key skill, I am surprised at the amount of people who do not check the start line, not only for bias but to get an idea of landmarks so they don;t need to see the buoys to know if the are close to or on the line.
Racing is not supposed to be easy, that is part of the fun (IMO).
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Fraggle
Far too distracted from work
Joined: 28 Feb 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 220 |
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Posted: 28 Sep 11 at 8:23am |
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Recent nationals I attended the RO was on a loud speaker telling the fleet to get back as they were over. This was done within 1 minute of the start on black flag. We had lots of recalls and hardly anyone chucked out.
Seemed ridiculous to me, as RO is making it clear he can see who is BFD but yet wasn't taking numbers. Strangely enough the fleet never learnt to behave so we continued to get lots of recalls. I think there were only about 3 boats all event who were recorded BFD.
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 28 Sep 11 at 11:09am |
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That is kind of contrary to the BFD rule too, boats who feel they were unfairly disadvantaged could have had a case for redress or to get the race(s) chucked from the series.
We all know how messy redress claims can get.....
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Brass
Really should get out more
Joined: 24 Mar 08 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1151 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 12:16am |
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Exactly what improper action or omission of the race committee do you think would be involved?
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jeffers
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Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 7:40am |
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If it is expected and 'normal' practice for an RO to give a warning and then a competitor gets an OCS or BFD and this warning was not issued they could claim they were not over as no warning was shown (no matter how tenuous). If you ignore the issuing of a warning this is what happened at the Merlin Rocket nationals this year, a boat was judges OCS on a black flag start. They successfully won following a protest and were given an average points redress. This, in hindsight, is seen by many as an error (especially at their actual finishing place was apparently noted by the RO) as they were then sailed down the fleet in the final race of the series and a oat who had not beaten them all week subsequently won the championship.
In my opinion it is better that the RO to let the boats sort themselves out and display the required signals (X, General recall, Black Flag, I flag, etc..). Then always record a boats time or where they would have finished just in case of any subsequent protest hearing so an accurate redress can be given.
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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Andymac
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Joined: 04 Apr 07 Location: Derbyshire Online Status: Offline Posts: 852 |
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Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 7:45am |
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Brass,
I think Jeffers was referring to Fraggles previous post, not the OP.
I'm sure you would be the first to agree that; if a race officer can clearly identify boats over the line inside the last minute under black flag. Then assuming the race is started, they should be BFD'd and nothing else.
Andy Mc.
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