Racing Rules: Starting - Warning when boats are OCS pre-start

Starting - Warning when boats are OCS pre-start

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Forum Name: Racing Rules
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Topic: Starting - Warning when boats are OCS pre-start

Posted By: sargesail
Subject: Starting - Warning when boats are OCS pre-start
Date Posted: 27 Sep 11 at 8:52pm

What do people think about the practice of using a signal before the start (either X or sometimes a light) to indicate that a boat is On Course Side before the start signal?

If the signal is not being shown/made at the gun can the Race Officer score a boat OCS?

Under what circumstances?

Replies:

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 27 Sep 11 at 9:58pm

Does anyone have copies of the old RYA RO's Newsletter articles and letters which discussed this topic 'Use of the V Flag'?

RYA has removed them from their Website.

If so can you post or message them to me.

Posted By: ChrisJ
Date Posted: 27 Sep 11 at 9:58pm

PURELY as a guide only. Yes it can work.

BUT it should not change the rules: over the line = OCS.

At the last moment, the Race Officer could well be too busy to show the extra signal. Or it might have got broken or dropped, or there are other things around.

As a guide to know how close to the line you are with 20 seconds to go, it can be very useful.

Posted By: sargesail
Date Posted: 27 Sep 11 at 10:39pm

Chris - I'm over it enough now....to ask the question and see what people think.

But I'll put it the other way - unless it's done properly and suitably resourced such that the risk of not showing the signal is minimal then it shouldn't be used.

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Sep 11 at 7:25am

There is no requirement at all for the RO to warn a boat that is OCS and introducing something is risky to say the least (in case the system fails for some reason).

The start line is one of the skills that seperates a good sailor from a not so good sailor. If you get the start right you can often get away from the fleet. if not you have to fight your way through.

Jusging if you are over ot not is also a key skill, I am surprised at the amount of people who do not check the start line, not only for bias but to get an idea of landmarks so they don;t need to see the buoys to know if the are close to or on the line.

Racing is not supposed to be easy, that is part of the fun (IMO).

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Fraggle
Date Posted: 28 Sep 11 at 8:23am

Recent nationals I attended the RO was on a loud speaker telling the fleet to get back as they were over. This was done within 1 minute of the start on black flag. We had lots of recalls and hardly anyone chucked out.

Seemed ridiculous to me, as RO is making it clear he can see who is BFD but yet wasn't taking numbers. Strangely enough the fleet never learnt to behave so we continued to get lots of recalls. I think there were only about 3 boats all event who were recorded BFD.

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Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 28 Sep 11 at 11:09am

That is kind of contrary to the BFD rule too, boats who feel they were unfairly disadvantaged could have had a case for redress or to get the race(s) chucked from the series.

We all know how messy redress claims can get.....

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Brass
Date Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 12:16am

Originally posted by jeffers

That is kind of contrary to the BFD rule too, boats who feel they were unfairly disadvantaged could have had a case for redress or to get the race(s) chucked from the series.

We all know how messy redress claims can get.....

Exactly what improper action or omission of the race committee do you think would be involved?

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 7:40am

If it is expected and 'normal' practice for an RO to give a warning and then a competitor gets an OCS or BFD and this warning was not issued they could claim they were not over as no warning was shown (no matter how tenuous). If you ignore the issuing of a warning this is what happened at the Merlin Rocket nationals this year, a boat was judges OCS on a black flag start. They successfully won following a protest and were given an average points redress. This, in hindsight, is seen by many as an error (especially at their actual finishing place was apparently noted by the RO) as they were then sailed down the fleet in the final race of the series and a oat who had not beaten them all week subsequently won the championship.

In my opinion it is better that the RO to let the boats sort themselves out and display the required signals (X, General recall, Black Flag, I flag, etc..). Then always record a boats time or where they would have finished just in case of any subsequent protest hearing so an accurate redress can be given.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Andymac
Date Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 7:45am

Originally posted by Brass

We all know how messy redress claims can get.....

Exactly what improper action or omission of the race committee do you think would be involved?

Brass,

I think Jeffers was referring to Fraggles previous post, not the OP.

I'm sure you would be the first to agree that; if a race officer can clearly identify boats over the line inside the last minute under black flag. Then assuming the race is started, they should be BFD'd and nothing else.

Andy Mc.

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 9:46am

To clarify, this was a response to the OP and other comments made:

Originally posted by jeffers

If it is expected and 'normal' practice for an RO to give a warning and then a competitor gets an OCS or BFD and this warning was not issued they could claim they were not over as no warning was shown (no matter how tenuous). If you ignore the issuing of a warning this is what happened at the Merlin Rocket nationals this year, a boat was judges OCS on a black flag start. They successfully won following a protest and were given an average points redress. This, in hindsight, is seen by many as an error (especially at their actual finishing place was apparently noted by the RO) as they were then sailed down the fleet in the final race of the series and a oat who had not beaten them all week subsequently won the championship.

To break it down:

1) Should an RO give warning if boats are over the line prior to the start? - No unless you are doing a training exercise

2) If such a signal is 'normal' practice (and the RO is not obligated to tell a boat they are OCS) and then is not shown for whatever reason can an RO score a boat OCS? Yes they could but they leave themselves open to protests/redress claims from compeititors who will claim they were not OCS as such a warning was not shown.

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: Stuart O
Date Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 10:21am

Having attended several RO seminars over the last 2-3 years the RYA are keen (where??) to adopt this practise... the argument being that the X-flag is only activated by the sound signals that are required by the rules.

The justification is that ROs are there to be competitor friendly

Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 12:06pm

There is being competitor friendly and making a rod for your own back! we have enough issues getting ROs to do duties for our own club racing because they are worried about the complexity of it currently let alone if they added something else for them to do....

I do agree that in club racing there may be a friendly shout of 'Bob you were over' accompanied by the appropriate flag and sound signal.

Beyond that it is difficult, especially as fleet sizes grow, to achieve this. The RYA are in danger of having a 2 tier starting system if they are not careful, this could cause issues to people who are learning and get used to having a warning so they dont need to worry about it who then attend a bigger event where they won't get this 'friendly' reminder.

IMO if the RYA want to change this they should propose rule changes to the ISAF so we have a level field.

I usually have a safety nearby at the start and if someone is over I ask them to mosey on over and let them know before they get too far away (if it is practical and safe to do so).

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Paul
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D-Zero GBR 74

Posted By: r2d2
Date Posted: 29 Sep 11 at 1:26pm

+1,

I wouldn't want to see this extra complexity for officials or competitors, or the arguments that will inevitably arise about whether it was or wasn't properly applied

On a lighter note, have a look at the start shown in this video from 2.20 to 2.50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WBZevwimq1o - http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WBZevwimq1o