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Class rules in handicap races

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Strangler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Class rules in handicap races
    Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 6:14pm

Class rules can change certain RRS. For example the Flying Dutchman Class Rules [and other classes no doubt] allow 3 pumps per....  I presume in a handicap race this will still be the case and therefore some classes will be sailing to the 1 pump and some to the 3 pumps per...  rule.

Do you agree with this interpretation?

Any other class rule v handicap anomilies?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 6:33pm
Is it in the actual class rules, or in the standard sailing instructions for the class?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote bert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 6:34pm

surley the sailing instructions should take prestance over the class rules for any event other then a class event,IE the RS classes are allowed to touch the marks but only in RS events.

Otherwise I would protest you under rule 42 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 8:07pm

These are the 2001-04 rules as the only ones I could lay my hands on quickly

The prescriptions of a national authority, class rules or SI may change a racing rule only as permitted by rule 86 which says a...,b..., c) class rules may only change racing rules 42, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 & 54.

So my interpretation unless - unless SIs say class rules doesn't change the RRS you can pump 3 times per wave in a handicap race if sailing an FD.  Unless, of course the class rules say only at... events

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 09 at 9:47pm
You're sailing in a handicap class race not a Flying Dutchman class race. So the extra pumps are banned. Just like the RS mark banging.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 09 at 7:02am
Jim: this does actually seem to be different. The three pumps are, after checking, in the class rules, whereas RS mark-barging is an SI thing. Class Rules can modify Rule 42, as said. The FD modifies 42.3

Some of the measurement/design rules (same document) for the FD also modify restrictions in the RRS. If handicap racing, it is usually accepted that you've got comply with class rules. Surely it is dodgy ground if you start saying that you've got to comply with some class rules but not others?

Of course, whether ISAF should have allowed this is another point- surely, as SIs can modify 42, this would have been better handled in standard SIs? It seems foolish to me that Class Rules can modify rules with regard to the conduct of a race, as it inevitably would lead to these situations.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 09 at 7:34am
Originally posted by alstorer

Jim: this does actually seem to be different. The three pumps are, after checking, in the class rules, whereas RS mark-barging is an SI thing. Class Rules can modify Rule 42, as said. The FD modifies 42.3

Doesn't matter. Nowhere in any handicap NOR I have seen does it mention class rules. You are sailing in a handicap event not a class event..

This extract from the Queen Mary SIs is typical...

1.     RULES
1.1     The regatta will be governed by the rules as defined in The Racing Rules of Sailing
1.2     The bye-laws of Queen Mary Sailing Club will apply.
1.3     Racing rules 26, 29.1, 29.2, 33, 35, 40, 63.1 and Race Signals will be changed. The changes will appear in full in the sailing instructions.


So the classes bit is basically just a convenience to handicappers. You should be able to sail a boat out of class if you wanted provided that you notified the Race organisers so they could set an appropriate revised handicap... Of course its rumoured that some weight equalised classes have a habit of sailing in an out of class config without notifying the race organisers which is, to say the least, naughty.

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote FreshScum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 09 at 7:52am
I was always fairly sure that a PY Handicap was given to a boat sailing to its class rules. So if its in the rules, you can pump 3 times.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote alstorer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 09 at 8:37am
Originally posted by RYA Portsmouth Scheme guide

3.10 Base Rig
is the physical configuration of rig upon which a boat’s
Portsmouth Number is assessed.
The configuration is either:
a) a boat rigged to its full performance potential and carrying on
board all sails permitted by its Class Rules where such Rules exist
(Class Rules must necessarily be those Rules applying during the
year in which the Returns are made. Any change subsequent to the
Return date may need to be reflected in the allocation of a Trial
Number at the beginning of the following season);

(from here, Part 1)

would make Jim appear to be correct.
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Al
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 09 at 8:42am

Originally posted by alstorer

Originally posted by RYA Portsmouth Scheme guide

3.10 Base Rig
is the physical configuration of rig upon which a boat’s
Portsmouth Number is assessed.
The configuration is either:
a) a boat rigged to its full performance potential and carrying on
board all sails permitted by its Class Rules where such Rules exist
(Class Rules must necessarily be those Rules applying during the
year in which the Returns are made. Any change subsequent to the
Return date may need to be reflected in the allocation of a Trial
Number at the beginning of the following season);

(from here, Part 1)

would make Jim appear to be correct.

 

Yep; the boat must conform to class rules when MEASURED, so all up weight  and any equalisation systems etc; but you usually use the unmodified RRS for Hcap events.

 

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