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redback View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07 Jun 09 at 10:30pm
I'm sure this is illegal but can't find a reference to a rule which says so.  I'd like to be able to quote an appeal or something as I witnessed it today.  An 800 was too early at a start and so the crew stuck one foot in the water to slow the boat.  I politely mentioned it when ashore but without being able to quote a reference I could not pursue it.
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Posts: 552 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnW Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 09 at 10:39pm

There was a discussion on this last year. Hope this helps.

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4 585&PN=2&TPN=1



Edited by JohnW
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Smight at BBSC View Drop Down
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Posts: 1129 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Smight at BBSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 2:24pm
I'm pretty sure we established that it wasn't allowed. 
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Probably 42.1 covers it.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 6:26pm

Originally posted by Smight at BBSC

I'm pretty sure we established that it wasn't allowed. 

Indeed, we did.

Just to test this principle;

i) If boat A clear ahead sailing a steady course, and a faster boat B approached from directly astern 'punted' boat A on the transom. Boat B would be in the wrong, yes?

ii) If boat A clear ahead sailing a steady course, with boat B similar speed very close astern, and boat A accidently dropped mainsheet and slowed suddenly with again a rear end shunt. It would, however unfortunate, still be boat B in the wrong, yes?

iii) Same scenario as ii) except Boat A slowed suddenly by 'deliberately' trailing leg in water. Boat A broke a rule, boat B exonerated? 

Would that be correct?
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 6:31pm
Not necessarily in case ii, as boat A could be charged with failing to avoid a collision if it's slowing action were deliberate.
But largely, yes.
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Posts: 852 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Andymac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 9:03pm

Originally posted by Lukepiewalker

Not necessarily in case ii, as boat A could be charged with failing to avoid a collision if it's slowing action were deliberate.

I did state an 'accidental' act in case ii, however in what instance would boat A be at fault if it slowed itself suddenly deliberately, but legitimately, resulting in a rear end shunt? Could it fall under rule 14, avoiding contact? If there was minor contact with no damage then Boat A hasn't broken a rule, or has it? and has boat B?

It's the kind of thing that could possibly happen pre-start, or maybe team racing?

Rule 16.1 states; When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.  Note I have underlined changes course, it does not mention slowing down or speeding up!

Or could a deliberate act to slow resulting in a collision by a following boat fall under rule 2; 'sportsmanship and fair play'?

Does anyone know of any cases?

 
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 9:13pm

I don't know of any cases but you are required (as right of way boat) to give the give way boat the opportunity to keep clear, this applies whether you are altering course or stopping by backing a sail.

I thought we'd conclusively established that deliberatly trailing your legs in the water was illegal propulsion (albeit of the negative sort).

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Garry View Drop Down
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Posts: 536 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Garry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by Andymac

Just to test this principle;

i) If boat A clear ahead sailing a steady course, and a faster boat B approached from directly astern 'punted' boat A on the transom. Boat B would be in the wrong, yes? agree

ii) If boat A clear ahead sailing a steady course, with boat B similar speed very close astern, and boat A accidently dropped mainsheet and slowed suddenly with again a rear end shunt. It would, however unfortunate, still be boat B in the wrong, yes? depends did B have opportunity to keep clear

iii) Same scenario as ii) except Boat A slowed suddenly by 'deliberately' trailing leg in water. Boat A broke a rule, boat B exonerated? Depends on damage and if B could have kept clear might disqualify both.

Would that be correct?
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Lukepiewalker View Drop Down
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Posts: 1341 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Lukepiewalker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 09 at 10:27pm
Sorry, I misread example ii. If it was an accidental drop of the sheet and the boat merely slowed down then you would reckon the boat astern to have been too close. In case iii, as the leading boat is slowing by breaking 42.1, the boat clear astern isn't expected to allow for the boat clear ahead breaking a rule as in the leg trailing case, but if it were so close that it could not avoid a collision in case of a legal act (ie slowing without backing a sail) they still might be penalised.
I suppose ultimately it's an area of many shades of grey where there are many variables that would subtly alter the ramifications in terms of the positioning and behaviour of the two boats.


Edited by Lukepiewalker
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