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I know you all like a rules tangle..
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Bandin View Drop Down
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Posts: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bandin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: I know you all like a rules tangle..
    Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:12pm
So today..


Two boats side by side both close hauled sailing on starboard.. about a boat lengths between them

The leeward boat got a little too close to an outcrop ahead and called for room to tack, then tacked. The windward boat didnt change course and said there was enough room for the leeward boat to dip behind, which he did. 

So who was right? Should the windward boat have tacked as requested, or was he correct in not tacking as the leeward boat was able to sail below him without any collision??

I know the rules say you have to keep clear when requested, but the requestee had room to sail behind him. 

This caused quite a discussion post race and would love to see others views.


Edited by Bandin - 20 Mar 22 at 9:17pm
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Posts: 245 		Post Options Post Options   Quote KazRob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:20pm
If I remember correctly, it’s one of the few compulsory hails in the rule book. The leeward boat hails for room to tack and the windward boat must either tack immediately or hail ‘You tack’ and is then compelled to keep clear.
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Posts: 3420 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 423zero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:40pm
If he had room to tack behind, why did he request room to tack?
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 9:42pm
Yep. Its a safety thing. Windward must either tack, or say "you tack" in which case they must give room. There are no other choices. If windward thinks the hail is unnecessary then their only recourse is to protest.


20 ROOM TO TACK AT AN OBSTRUCTION
20.1 Hailing
A boat may hail for room to tack and avoid a boat on the same tack.
However, she shall not hail unless
(a) she is approaching an obstruction and will soon need to make a substantial course change to avoid it safely, and
(b) she is sailing close-hauled or above.
In addition, she shall not hail if the obstruction is a mark and a boat
that is fetching it would be required to change course as a result of the
hail.
20.2 Responding
(a) After a boat hails, she shall give a hailed boat time to respond.
(b) A hailed boat shall respond even if the hail breaks rule 20.1.
(c) A hailed boat shall respond either by tacking as soon as possible,
or by immediately replying ‘You tack’ and then giving the
hailing boat room to tack and avoid her.
(d) When a hailed boat responds, the hailing boat shall tack as soon
as possible.
(e) From the time a boat hails until she has tacked and avoided a
hailed boat, rule 18.2 does not apply between them.


So if windward immediately hailed back "you tack" then all rules were obeyed, since leeward was given room to avoid. If windward didn't respond in the correct way then they technically broke 20.2c.

If leeward is in any doubt about whether there's enough room to tack they may as well hail, because windward can always hail you tack, and it means leeward is covered if someone has misjudged it.

Its fairly worrying that you had a post race discussion on one of the most important safety rules in the book!



Edited by JimC - 20 Mar 22 at 9:48pm
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Bandin View Drop Down
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Posts: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bandin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:10pm
Originally posted by JimC


Its fairly worrying that you had a post race discussion on one of the most important safety rules in the book!


Yep.. there'll be some sleepless sailors tonight worried sick.  Clap

The discussion was due to the fact the leeward boat called for room to tack, yet had room to tack and dip behind the windward boat which did not alter course. 

Post race the leeward boat said the windward boat should have tacked regardless.. the windward boat said the leeward boat had room to tack.

So are you saying you have to tack? even if you believe the call is false, then protest? Seems a bit daft.  


Edited by Bandin - 20 Mar 22 at 10:23pm
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:36pm
You have to either tack or hail back "you tack", and in the latter case you have to give the other boat room.
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Posts: 22 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Bandin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 10:45pm
Originally posted by JimC

You have to either tack or hail back "you tack", and in the latter case you have to give the other boat room.

Exactly.. so does 'room' include holding your course and the other boat successfully dipping behind you? The leeward boat says no.. the windward boat says yes. 


Edited by Bandin - 20 Mar 22 at 10:45pm
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 22 at 11:03pm
Leeward managed to tack without hitting windward, so there must have been (or windward gave) room to tack…
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Posts: 121 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Old bloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 6:48am
Depending on the circumstances a tack and immediate hard bear away is not guaranteed to be done successfully and if you don't get it quite right there is no safe exit and a T- boned boat. I don't think it is unreasonable to want a margin of error
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Posts: 929 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Mar 22 at 7:43am
Originally posted by JimC


Its fairly worrying that you had a post race discussion on one of the most important safety rules in the book!


To be fair to him at some clubs this comes up every race, at others it may never really crop up due to where they sail.
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