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Do we need to raise standards?

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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Do we need to raise standards?
    Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 12:41am
The front page article about sailing's future, and the "new RS" thread, raised the old issue of the death of old-time amateur boatbuilding and maintenance as a popular hobby. But on cycling forums I see lots of people who are into "building" and modifying bikes. 

There is of course a huge difference between "building" a bike (which normally means assembling bits) and building a boat, but it's interesting to see how people get into playing with bikes. One thing that strikes me is that the cycling manufacturers build kit to unofficial standards that makes everything much easier and more fun in many ways - if you replace a derailleur it just goes into a threaded hole the same size as the old one - if you replace a cleat you often have to fill in the old hole, drill a new one, get different size fastenings, etc.  There's more faffing and less tinkering, in a way.

As far as I know, there aren't any standards for fittings in sailing. Is the sport missing out by making messing with boats too hard these days, and could some (obviously not all) fittings be produced to more more modular and consistent in their mountings and fastenings, just as they are in bicycles? I may add that I saw the same sort of standards and consistency in plastic fishing kayaks when I looked into the depth sounders they use, and people seemed to love it.

Along the same line of thought - many people play with bikes by upgrading their equipment; they may go from Sora gears and brakes to 105, for example. In the cycling world, the hierarchy of equipment is explicit, so manufacturers make money from upgrades and people get to bimble without filling the house with epoxy dust. Would that work in sailing?

In some way this could tie together with the upcoming 3d printing of boats and gear - if kit is going to change dramatically in production and open up new avenues in design surely there should be an effort to create some standards before the developments bring chaos. I've got no idea about IT but it would seem to make it much easier to programme 3d printers if, for example, there were standards in bolt holes and base plates for pulleys. And having such standards could also make it easier to upgrade fittings to those of a superior quality.  So a 3d printed RS9er could be bought with Brandex ClubRacer fittings, and you could in the course of an enjoyable afternoon unbolt everything to uprade to CoolProDude level kit, without pulling out the grinder, bog and 'glass (NTTAWTT). 

Would this sort of approach fit the modern world better than the current one, where fittings appear to be pretty much designed with little thought to common standards and consistency and upgrading is often a PITA?  It certainly works for bikes.


Edited by Chris 249 - 12 Jan 17 at 12:47am
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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 1:07am
The standardisation in cycling is a strange phenomenon. Nothing like it in motor cycles or cars for instance. I sort of idly wonder if its partly because push cycles themselves are so consistent in size, theyre all pretty much the same size and weight driven by a similar sized power plant...
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Presuming Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 9:17am
Standardisation in bikes? 

[Cough]Bottom brackets[/Cough]
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Post Options Post Options   Quote davidyacht Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 9:40am
I race pretty much every weekend and do a couple of week long regattas each year.  I cannot think of the last time I bought a fitting in the last 10 years.  The standard layouts and systems on boats are so good and the quality and durability of fittings so high that there is little to modify or replace.  My only chandlery hardware purchases seem to be burgees and rope.  So I think that this is suggesting that there is a problem that is not there.
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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Standardisation in bikes? 

[Cough]Bottom brackets[/Cough]

But isn't that both a recognised issue (there was plenty of comment about BBright and the lack of standardisation) and also fairly rare?

As an active cycle racer and an active dinghy sailor, I find that I can switch gear quite easily among my bikes (which include an aero roadie, a classic roadie, a time trial machine, a CX bike and a track bike) - much more easily than I can between the boats. The Tasar, Canoe and Laser all use different tiller extension sockets, different cleat hole patterns, yada yada yada, with almost no commonality.  
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 9:59am
Originally posted by davidyacht

I race pretty much every weekend and do a couple of week long regattas each year.  I cannot think of the last time I bought a fitting in the last 10 years.  The standard layouts and systems on boats are so good and the quality and durability of fittings so high that there is little to modify or replace.  My only chandlery hardware purchases seem to be burgees and rope.  So I think that this is suggesting that there is a problem that is not there.

Fair point. I'm just interested in looking at a similar sport (or two sports, if you count the kayaks) that are currently doing better than sailing, and seeing what can be learned from them.

Also, on the other thread people have raised the issue of cheaper one designs (ie the budget 505) and others have rightly pointed out that they don't work. It's interesting to see that other sports, by making it easier to upgrade gear, may provide a path that satisfies both sides of the argument.

Still, this is just musing and putting ideas out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RS400atC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 10:07am
Thinking about the 400, I've done a few fitting changes over 9 years or whatever.
Upgraded kicker to 4x2x2 from 2x2x2x2
Changed main jammer and ratchet block
Added auto ratchets to jib sheets
Modified continuous control take-ups
Changed cleat/fairlead combinations on pole-ejector an kite halliard
New main halyard clamcleat
Upgraded rudder downhaul clamcleat to self releasing thinghy.

That is all just screwdriver stuff. Standard parts. I think I had to drill new holes for the main jammer to fit Ronstan.

This winter I need to attack the bespoke fitting at the base of the mast with sheaves for cunningham and jib tension. I'll probably rebuild it with new sheaves.

A lot of bits just shackle on or are on saddle plates. A lot of cleats fit the same hole pitch.
Other stuff is not specific to one job, a ratchet block can go in 5 places on my boat, a 25mm block about 20 places? a bike part only goes in one generally?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Jack Sparrow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 11:12am
Originally posted by Chris 249

The front page article about sailing's future, and the "new RS" thread, raised the old issue of the death of old-time amateur boatbuilding and maintenance as a popular hobby. But on cycling forums I see lots of people who are into "building" and modifying bikes. 

There is of course a huge difference between "building" a bike (which normally means assembling bits) and building a boat, but it's interesting to see how people get into playing with bikes. One thing that strikes me is that the cycling manufacturers build kit to unofficial standards that makes everything much easier and more fun in many ways 

We are trying to do it with the Farr 3.7 - and our CNC files that enable the hull parts to be laser cut out. But undeniably there is still a tonne of work to do after this stage, even with our very good plans, instructions and online knowledge base.

I don't think it is possible to improve this at the moment.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote fleaberto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Presuming Ed

Standardisation in bikes? 
[Cough]Bottom brackets[/Cough]


Agreed. 'Standardisation' in the MTB world seems to mean: "As many different sizes of anything on a bike at any one time - but not for your bike"

Seat tube posts.
Wheel sizes.
Tyre width.
Bottom Brackets
Axle/Hub sizes
Front wheel fork fittings
Headsets
Brake discs
Brake pads
Handlebar tube thickness
....the list gets longer every week.

Some of my MTB pals blurt the usual 'But sailing is so expensive!' .... whilst sitting astride their £7000 Santa Cruz all-carbon machines, bedecked in expensive cagoules and shoes that cost more than a carbon tiller extension for my 600!
Lightning368 'All the Gear' (409), Lightning368 'Sprite' (101), Laser (big number) 'Yellow Jack', RS Vareo (432)'The Golden Rays'
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Post Options Post Options   Quote PeterV Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 17 at 12:10pm
WE have standardisation in some parts. Nearly all cam cleats have standard mounting hole centres so it's very easy to upgrade these.
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