New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: A 'Cyclical' decline in double handed boats?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

A 'Cyclical' decline in double handed boats?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>
Author
NickM View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 27 May 09
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 328
Post Options Post Options   Quote NickM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: A 'Cyclical' decline in double handed boats?
    Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 10:46pm
In another thread Mike L said:

"Double handed boats are possibly in relative decline it is true - but at Cirrus we believe this is in part cyclical and partly down to demographic changes and the marketing approach now required."

Reasons for the relative demise of double handed has been discussed on here before: time rich older sailors who find it more convenient to sail in singlehanded boats, maybe because their spouse/children are no longer interested in crewing.... Too many calls on people's time it is harder to establish a committed helm and crew pairing.... Many younger sailors who are probably more inclined to go double handed dropping out to manage the demands of building a career and mange young families etc. etc.

But "cyclical" suggests things will change. I am curious to know how Cirrus see how this will happen and in what time frame. And how do you market against such a trend?
Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 9:44am
I don't mean to butt in, however I have seen references to doublehanders fading in numbers from as early as about 1963, and as far away as New Zealand. The trend was also mentioned in the excellent annual articles about trends in national championship attendance that were published in Y&Y in the '70s. It may also be that crewed boats designed for couples and families are maintaining their popularity more than boats designed for two mature-aged men, from what I can see when looking at the numbers.

It seems to be a very long-term trend. IMHO boats like the Icon are one "cure", as they don't require extremely fit and skilled crews as much as some other types (although of course a fit and skilled crew is an advantage).  Down here in Oz I think there is a problem in that the small easy-to-sail crewed boats such as the Mirror or Heron are too small for hefty modern couples, and the bigger boats such as the Tasar tend to be too fast and high-powered for many beginners in our strong winds.

At the risk of going off on a tangent, in Oz and the USA there are a bunch of very popular three-person boats. It seems odd that the three-person boats may be holding up better than two-person boats, but that does seem to be the case. Maybe it's easier to arrange a stand-in crew for three-up boats because if one guy can't make it, there's still two people who know the boat, and jobs are spread around more. The 3 man crew seems to be popular in keelboats, perhaps for the same reason.

Could the drop in crewed sailing be stemmed by the introduction of three-person boats? Probably there's some very good reason why they have not really succeeded in the UK; maybe the UK dinghy scene isn't set up for bigger boats?








Edited by Chris 249 - 01 Aug 14 at 9:48am
Back to Top
getafix View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 28 Mar 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2143
Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 12:32pm
If you want to sail with 3 crew, there's plenty of fun to be had in keelboats, I don't really know why you'd want to put all that weight into a dinghy and most people in the UK don't have access to sailing waters where such beasts would be practicle.

I think there was a niche in the UK, but it was answered very nicely by the X0 and X1, to whose builders I wish all the very best (in the hope I will scrape the pennies up to join their customer base one day)
Back to Top
Paramedic View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 27 Jan 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 929
Post Options Post Options   Quote Paramedic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 8:29am
Its funny how no dinghy that was designed around a three man crew survives in that form as a racing class.

you'd have thought there'd have been a market among the retired who can't manage a fast one or two man boat
Back to Top
getafix View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 28 Mar 06
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2143
Post Options Post Options   Quote getafix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 9:15am
Originally posted by Paramedic

Its funny how no dinghy that was designed around a three man crew survives in that form as a racing class.

you'd have thought there'd have been a market among the retired who can't manage a fast one or two man boat

There is such a market, but they buy 2 or 2+ crew boats with large bits of lead hanging off the bottom of them and somewhere to have brew and a kip under cover from the rain!

...or the more hardy types buy X-boats, Dragons, Swallows, Etchells, Sunbeams, Squibs etc and have a brew in the YC before going out for a sail (in my experience)


Edited by getafix - 06 Aug 14 at 9:17am
Back to Top
JimC View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 17 May 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6662
Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 9:35am
The Thames Raters generally sail as three handers, I think the National 18s do, plus of course the 18ft skiffs. I think a lot of the local one designs tended to be sailed 3 handed, and there were loads in the 50s, but they didn't survive the dinghy boom.

As a completely evidence free guess, I wonder if its a factor that a decent three hander is too big to work on in a normal UK domestic garage. It strikes me as significant that Thames SC, where the raters live, has sufficient shed space for all the Raters in winter, including currently out of use boats.
Back to Top
JohnJack View Drop Down
Far too distracted from work
Far too distracted from work


Joined: 12 Mar 13
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 246
Post Options Post Options   Quote JohnJack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 9:42am
I saw a National 18 at Filey Regatta this year, which I think is a 2 or 3 up with single trap. It was huge! Most popular dinghies seem to fit into a 14' x 6' plan (maybe wider for Merlins) this is a size that would fit into most peoples garages (if the other half hadn't demanded a chest freezer go in the back of the garage!, next house will have a double and somewhere else for the freezer).
Try fitting room for three small adults into that size, taking into account an extra c.70-80KG. There are boats where you can maybe get away with this, Wanderer, GP14 but it tends to be cramped. 
Moving up a size, 16' brings the Wayfarer or the Lazy E which unfortunately never took off in the UK (National E Skiff in Australia) these can take three, however are only powered up for really for two. 
To be powered up properly your going to need a bigger rig, with bigger loads. To counter more power up top, you would need a bigger c/board and so on and so on. By the time you add all this in you will probably have something that looks like a small keelboat with the possibility of capsizing (and would be a pita to recover).
There might even be the division of labour, a dinghy with main, jib, spinny (where the jib or spinny doesn't get changed mid race) doesn't really require three people. The third person maybe just ballast (give them a role like 'tactician' or something).
Back to Top
iGRF View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 07 Mar 11
Location: Hythe
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6499
Post Options Post Options   Quote iGRF Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 10:21am
Three is a poor psychological mix, it'll always be two blaming one for problems.
Back to Top
gordon1277 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 24 Mar 10
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 665
Post Options Post Options   Quote gordon1277 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 11:22am
Ospreys sometimes sail three up and they are not 200kg as the National 18 shown in the last Y&Y.
The main reason I swapped to from crewing FD, 505 was desire to drive and from helming 400 to single handers was hassle with crews not keen enough or turning up and me being to heavy.
Gordon
Lossc
Back to Top
transient View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more


Joined: 21 Aug 12
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 715
Post Options Post Options   Quote transient Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 11:47am
Regarding two handers:

"Double handed boats are possibly in relative decline it is true - but at Cirrus we believe this is in part cyclical and partly down to demographic changes and the marketing approach now required."

.....yes, no doubt these things have an influence.....But there are other more important possible factors.

In a general sense maybe peoples aspirations and personal qualities are changing.

These qualities and requirements are many and varied but they essentially boil down to the fact that folk are less willing to play second fiddle, less willing to be considered by others as second rate sailors......Lets face it, crew have been ridiculed, blamed and generally left off the honours list since the year dot, many youngsters no longer have the "qualities" required to put up with it. The phrase "I know my place" no longer applies

If I were marketing a 2 hander part of my strategy would be to champion the cause of the crew. Try and make crewing more attractive as a proposition. Emphasise the equality.





Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 5>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy