A 'Cyclical' decline in double handed boats?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11577
Printed Date: 12 Jul 25 at 6:26pm
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Topic: A 'Cyclical' decline in double handed boats?
Posted By: NickM
Subject: A 'Cyclical' decline in double handed boats?
Date Posted: 31 Jul 14 at 10:46pm
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In another thread Mike L said:
"Double handed boats are possibly in relative decline it is true - but at Cirrus we believe this is in part cyclical and partly down to demographic changes and the marketing approach now required." Reasons for the relative demise of double handed has been discussed on here before: time rich older sailors who find it more convenient to sail in singlehanded boats, maybe because their spouse/children are no longer interested in crewing.... Too many calls on people's time it is harder to establish a committed helm and crew pairing.... Many younger sailors who are probably more inclined to go double handed dropping out to manage the demands of building a career and mange young families etc. etc. But "cyclical" suggests things will change. I am curious to know how Cirrus see how this will happen and in what time frame. And how do you market against such a trend? |
Replies:
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 9:44am
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I don't mean to butt in, however I have seen references to doublehanders fading in numbers from as early as about 1963, and as far away as New Zealand. The trend was also mentioned in the excellent annual articles about trends in national championship attendance that were published in Y&Y in the '70s. It may also be that crewed boats designed for couples and families are maintaining their popularity more than boats designed for two mature-aged men, from what I can see when looking at the numbers. It seems to be a very long-term trend. IMHO boats like the Icon are one "cure", as they don't require extremely fit and skilled crews as much as some other types (although of course a fit and skilled crew is an advantage). Down here in Oz I think there is a problem in that the small easy-to-sail crewed boats such as the Mirror or Heron are too small for hefty modern couples, and the bigger boats such as the Tasar tend to be too fast and high-powered for many beginners in our strong winds. At the risk of going off on a tangent, in Oz and the USA there are a bunch of very popular three-person boats. It seems odd that the three-person boats may be holding up better than two-person boats, but that does seem to be the case. Maybe it's easier to arrange a stand-in crew for three-up boats because if one guy can't make it, there's still two people who know the boat, and jobs are spread around more. The 3 man crew seems to be popular in keelboats, perhaps for the same reason. Could the drop in crewed sailing be stemmed by the introduction of three-person boats? Probably there's some very good reason why they have not really succeeded in the UK; maybe the UK dinghy scene isn't set up for bigger boats? |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 01 Aug 14 at 12:32pm
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If you want to sail with 3 crew, there's plenty of fun to be had in keelboats, I don't really know why you'd want to put all that weight into a dinghy and most people in the UK don't have access to sailing waters where such beasts would be practicle. I think there was a niche in the UK, but it was answered very nicely by the X0 and X1, to whose builders I wish all the very best (in the hope I will scrape the pennies up to join their customer base one day)
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Posted By: Paramedic
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 8:29am
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Its funny how no dinghy that was designed around a three man crew survives in that form as a racing class. you'd have thought there'd have been a market among the retired who can't manage a fast one or two man boat ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 9:15am
There is such a market, but they buy 2 or 2+ crew boats with large bits of lead hanging off the bottom of them and somewhere to have brew and a kip under cover from the rain! ...or the more hardy types buy X-boats, Dragons, Swallows, Etchells, Sunbeams, Squibs etc and have a brew in the YC before going out for a sail (in my experience)
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 9:35am
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The Thames Raters generally sail as three handers, I think the National 18s do, plus of course the 18ft skiffs. I think a lot of the local one designs tended to be sailed 3 handed, and there were loads in the 50s, but they didn't survive the dinghy boom.
As a completely evidence free guess, I wonder if its a factor that a decent three hander is too big to work on in a normal UK domestic garage. It strikes me as significant that Thames SC, where the raters live, has sufficient shed space for all the Raters in winter, including currently out of use boats. |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 9:42am
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I saw a National 18 at Filey Regatta this year, which I think is a 2 or 3 up with single trap. It was huge! Most popular dinghies seem to fit into a 14' x 6' plan (maybe wider for Merlins) this is a size that would fit into most peoples garages (if the other half hadn't demanded a chest freezer go in the back of the garage!, next house will have a double and somewhere else for the freezer). Try fitting room for three small adults into that size, taking into account an extra c.70-80KG. There are boats where you can maybe get away with this, Wanderer, GP14 but it tends to be cramped. Moving up a size, 16' brings the Wayfarer or the Lazy E which unfortunately never took off in the UK (National E Skiff in Australia) these can take three, however are only powered up for really for two. To be powered up properly your going to need a bigger rig, with bigger loads. To counter more power up top, you would need a bigger c/board and so on and so on. By the time you add all this in you will probably have something that looks like a small keelboat with the possibility of capsizing (and would be a pita to recover). There might even be the division of labour, a dinghy with main, jib, spinny (where the jib or spinny doesn't get changed mid race) doesn't really require three people. The third person maybe just ballast (give them a role like 'tactician' or something).
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 10:21am
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Three is a poor psychological mix, it'll always be two blaming one for problems. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 11:22am
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Ospreys sometimes sail three up and they are not 200kg as the National 18 shown in the last Y&Y.
The main reason I swapped to from crewing FD, 505 was desire to drive and from helming 400 to single handers was hassle with crews not keen enough or turning up and me being to heavy. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 11:47am
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Regarding two handers:
"Double handed boats are possibly in relative decline it is true - but at Cirrus we believe this is in part cyclical and partly down to demographic changes and the marketing approach now required." .....yes, no doubt these things have an influence.....But there are other more important possible factors. In a general sense maybe peoples aspirations and personal qualities are changing. These qualities and requirements are many and varied but they essentially boil down to the fact that folk are less willing to play second fiddle, less willing to be considered by others as second rate sailors......Lets face it, crew have been ridiculed, blamed and generally left off the honours list since the year dot, many youngsters no longer have the "qualities" required to put up with it. The phrase "I know my place" no longer applies If I were marketing a 2 hander part of my strategy would be to champion the cause of the crew. Try and make crewing more attractive as a proposition. Emphasise the equality. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 11:51am
 ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 11:52am
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This is surely one for someone inclined enough to crunch the numbers going back a few decades or more. Championship numbers are one place to find the numbers but even the blessed PN returns may give some indication. It can only be anecdotal in part coupled to a bit of theorising but a few of the factors amongst many could be: 1) Most 'modern' 2-up racing boats are mostly fairly complex and therefore require crew to be fairly knowledgeable early on. Traps, spinnakers etc etc... Difficult for them in the early stages of course and possibly a tad frustrating for the helm. 2) An increased tendancy to learn on sailing courses .. and proportionatly less informally and'on the job' around the clubs. In the day if a crew was AWOL the helm would quickly scan the clubhouse/compound for anyone ... and because the boats (things like Fireflys and Ents) were 'easy' a club race was saved. This 'press-gang' approach brought a lot of the 'undecided' into the fold.... 'other halves', children and total strangers and non-sailors alike. They then considered sailing to be a 2-Person activity of course .. and social. Social involvement builds and maintains clubs and participation and imo is vital to club health in general. 3) A parallel tendancy to train on single-handers - fewer Mirrors and Cadets today perhaps proportionately ... Yes I l know there are a few exceptions today but they are exactly that .. exceptions and possibly not the mainstream any more. 4) Crews often get side-lined in reports etc. In an increasingly competitive world this may encourage many to go after single-handers possibly - chasing the recognition and miss both the social and competitive advantages of 2-crew racing. And why do journals accept race reports who do not identify one half of many dinghy teams ? It is akin to only listing the forwards in Football or Rugby. Capable crews are no more common than capable helms. So the real question could be .... Is it worth promoting 2-crew sailing / racing ? If this trend were confirmed can it or should it be reversed ? Mike L. |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 1:36pm
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I find crews being ignored in results intensely irritating. It may be ok for Dad to potter round in a Mirror with a five year old blowing bubbles in the front but any serious sailor needs a good crew. Double handed sailing requires team work and communication and on most symmetric boats the crew leads a busy life particularly with a trap to contend with. Even on a Tasar with no kite when approaching a downwind mark, loose the jib stick and stow it, drag back the lee shroud, give it some kicker as you go round, bang the board down, haul on some outhaul, adjust the jib cars, close the bailer and get some weight out. All the helm has to do is waggle the stick and paint his nails. I crewed for years and my friend and I owned the boats jointly. It had its advantages, he made me sail when I didn't want to and I made him sail when he didn't want to. This was of course also a disadvantage so after twelve years he bought a Supernova and I ended up in Lightnings. We now fondly recall our epic arguments of long ago. The problem is that sustaining a reliable partnership is very difficult, wives get fed up, children grow up and single handers are just easier.
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Posted By: ChrisI
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 1:50pm
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I'd say (.... but, with a vested interest in the X0 and X1, please take this with a healthy dose of 'well I would') that perhaps the major thing that is happening right now in front of our eyes, that maybe not everyone is clocking, is a further step change in what we expect racing dinghies to weigh.
The acid test of this will be whether the RS Aero and the D-Zero are successful - in that if they are both mass sellers (.... 5,000+ within five years??) then they will alter many many sailors expectations permanently, including what double handers should weigh too. Here on the Thames a number of clubs have historically had 14ft limits on boat length going back decades, or even centuries, (i.e. 14, Merlin, Enterprise) and, while it has never been said, I'm fairly sure this is because 16/18ft boats were so f**** heavy. Now that you can make a 16ft boat that can easily be picked up by two people, and with the clear benefits gained from extra waterline length against a 3 knot tide, I think these limits are unlikely to apply for much longer. And on the matter of crew... I'd like to put in a word for crews! I'm one and I really enjoy it, believing I contribute to a race just as much as the helm (although never the capsizes of course....  ) - although I'd probably admit that the spinnaker is the thing that keeps me busy.
And I suppose I have to put in a word for 3 person dinghies too - seeing as though the X0 and X1 can easily take three people. We have a boat in Germany being sailed regularly by a lady match racer and two girlfriends, who are having a lot of fun. |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 2:01pm
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On the subject of capsize fault. Many years ago we sailed a Lark which spent a lot of time inverted.....I wrote on the bottom, "If you ever do that to me again.......". He did though, many times. Happy days. I like the light and long idea though. We sailed a Javelin. 17'7" but so, so heavy.
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Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 3:13pm
Mike L's post above did not really address my OP question, but no matter. He made a good point about the complexity of crewing many modern two handers, so his marketing point might be... buy an Icon 
In my limited experience of racing multi-handed small keel boats, I noticed that it sometimes worked better for the best sailor NOT to helm but to act as tactician, trimmer and general crew-organiser leaving the helm just to point and steer. |
Posted By: Thunder Road
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 3:21pm
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Possibly, we also forget that modern working practices have led to the erosion of the 5 day, 9 to 5 working week that many of us were accustomed to as we grew up. Now most jobs demand a more disjointed working pattern and not having to worry about spoiling someone's leisure time does add to the appeal of a singlehander, although one might prefer company in the boat, it does remove one aspect of the stress of time management. Great for families who spend their leisure time together but hard for two separate busy people. I admit it is good to have someone to share the Brandy and Babycham with after a famous victory, but don't want to let a crew down if I'm working 3 weekends in a row! ------------- Finn GBR16 Thunder Road. |
Posted By: JohnJack
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 3:23pm
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I think the second fiddle is a valid arguament, it is funny looking around at sailing club results. Allot of the older sailing clubs only have a helm name for their double hander classes, hwere as more up to date clubs even have separate series which aggregate all the the results of all the different boats a 'crew' may have been in. Notts seem to do this. I am involved in the website for my class and have brought in rules for race reports to always involve crews and boats to be refered to a Smith & Jones for example. I also try and give everyone who attends a mention rather than the top three chandler or sail makers jockeys. Obviously going to be a bit difficult when we have our big events but we try to involve everyone. As far as crewing, due to all boats having this sudden habbit of wanting to sail upside down when I go rear of the thwart or even touch the waggle stick, I am a crew through and through. I learnt my trade on the job crewing at first Enterprises, then GP's and for the last 3 years Scorpions. I consider my self an averagely good crew most of the time in most conditions. In the boat we are equals down wind I have a decent sized spinnaker to keep me occupied and up wind I am calling the gusts and shifts, we are constantly communicating, looking after the rig, we both look after kicker but talk to each other when we are doing it, outhaul and down haul are at front so they are min, but again constantly talking and changing gears discussing tactics and so on. I am better placed to full out hike and among the Scorpion the fleet, the crew tends to be the workhorse of the boat, even more so now with twin pole launchers. It is amazing to watch on board video of the top crews as they are constantly on the go. They should really get the credit for what they do.
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Posted By: gordon1277
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 3:52pm
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Well said Transient.
The RYA ignore crews completely there are no courses for crews at all and I wonder if at junior level how many people are put off sailing because they dont get the chance the Cadet and Mirror used to provide by training through association and time on the water. Sorry my hobbie horse. Why dont they and clubs (including my own) produce a training program level 1 jib handling rigging the boat etc level 2 asymetric sailing( 6 year olds and Grumph can cope with them after all. Level 3 advanced Symmetric plus tacttics etc. Note the importance Nick Craig and other good Helms put on having a good crew. ------------- Gordon Lossc |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 4:07pm
| The demise of the double hander is a shame. At my club many members began their sailing sitting in the front then began to helm later on. These days kids are stuffed in Toppers where the learning curve is steep and wet! |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 7:57pm
| Is the demise in double-handers as significant as it first seems? Without looking at lots of opens/nationals turnouts, I know the 200s have over 90 boats entered for their Nationals. That's over 180 people taking part. I'm not sure any adult singlehanded class gets close to that. Maybe the success of a class should also be measured in terms of the number of people they get participating? |
Posted By: NickM
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 10:03pm
| Jeepers: from a very quick look and unscientific look at Y&Y stats for Nationals attendances, I would say that in 2013 the top 10 single handers turned out about as many boats as the top 10 double handers. So, double handers had more sailors on the water. But if you look at the "boat races" counted by the RYA for the last PY returns, Lasers, Radials and Solos alone counted almost 90,000 boat races, getting on for three times the number of boat races counted by the top half dozen double handers. |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 06 Aug 14 at 11:12pm
| This evening we had 14 boats out none of them double handers. Nice wind at first but it deteriorated later. Luckily a wonderful sunset which was a good thing because I considered slitting my throat, I sailed so badly. I longed to be crewing again so that I had someone else to blame. (one of the advantages of double handers. |
Posted By: Jeepers
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 12:32am
| NickM: you've looked into to it harder than I! Was just a spur of the moment thought. But I and countless of my generation (I suspect) weren't brought up thro Oppie Squads etc. I was firmly planted at the front of my Dad's Mirror, later Grad, later Ent, later 470. And at 50 now, still a reasonably competitive open sailor with a crew that's been sailing with me for about 12 years (and easily as good on the stick as I). I've done the singlehanded thing, sat for hours waiting to start a race in no wind, big swell, p*****g rain, no one to talk to, (wtf am I doing this with precious leave from work!). Having your mate (which often for me was the missus) was so much more fun. Shared experiences etc etc. The only thing that can be said about sailing singlehanded boats - well it's a bit like farting in an empty room - you know it's all down to you, it's anti social (on the water at least), it's easy, convenient, and totally self indulgent - but when the s**t hits the fan, there's nothing like having someone else around to help sort it all out. Doublehanders might well be in decline, but I know what I'd rather be sailing! |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 2:36am
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The nationals championship attendances that I can find, mainly from Y&Y, indicate an enormous trend away from 2 up sailing in dinghies. From 1975 to 1978, doublehanders outnumbered singlehanders by 3.8 to 1. By 99/2000 the numbers were almost equal. Over 2011-13, there were 0.83 doublehanders to each singlehander. The numbers for '76-00 are incomplete as far as smaller classes go, but for 1975 they are pretty good. The list of the most popular classes in order of '75 nationals attendance shows just how much doublehanders dominated; GP14 - 226 boats Ent - 200 Fireball - 175 Cadet - 173 Mirror - 148 Laser - 147 Merlin - 132 505 - 130 N12 - 130 Scorpion - 121 Solo - 117 Graduate - 105 Lark - 105 OK - 85 Firefly - 75 (normally 100+ in this period) Opti - 50 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 2:47am
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Re the posts about three-handed dinghies; yep, I assumed that the greater length was a problem in terms of fitting into garages etc; I know that Beecher Moore wrote that a popular boat should be around 14' to fit into UK garages. On the other hand, a three-person boat doesn't have to be heavy - the (Lightweight) Sharpie is 20' long and low tech but weighs just 90kg, while the 16 foot Skiff is around 74kg IIRC. And while I'm strictly going off dubious gut feeling here, I tend to think the crew in three-person boats may actually get more credit than the crew do in two-handers - perhaps skippers find it harder to ignore crew when the skippers are outnumbered 2 to 1! :-) Obviously there are good reasons for the lack of three-man dinghies in the UK; it's just interesting to note that in other major sailing countries, the three-man boats have helped to stem the drift away from crewed boats, and maybe there's a lesson there.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 4:58am
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The other interesting thing from those 75 numbers is that its not dominated by youth classes the way it is now.
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 5:08am
There shouldn't be, because the skiff classes are teaching us slowly thst the helm taking the mainsheet is slow, so a forward hand/sheet hand/helm split (like the 18s) should be fast. The Raters don't seem to sail like that though (middle hand just does runners), but its not something I've ever discussed with Rater sailors. |
Posted By: Do Different
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 6:58am
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Could agree more with Jeepers @ 12.32 It could be said single handers are a metaphor for modern life and fast food. Double handers are a bit more bother, take a little more commitment to the project than simply yourself but have more layers of flavour and keep you satisfied for longer.
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Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 9:00am
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All the more reason that new double handers be encouraged, not handicapped out of existence by short sighted protectionism. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: transient
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 10:47am
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As has been mentioned: How many clubs don't publish the crew names?
I've just had a quick recce through the Y&Y clubs map and found 2 very quickly, both in the S.E. corner. 
....I remember reading Andy Hemmings book "Crewing to Win" a few years ago. He dedicates a few pages to the subject of crews being ignored at prizegivings and on results....It made an impression, good on him. |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 10:55am
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All the more reason that new double handers be encouraged, not handicapped out of existence by short sighted protectionism. Greame - That is another issue but don't think that is the case in any event. That issue has more to do with the mechanics and limitations of the current system / methodology ... it is a bit 'institutional' (I choose the word carefully ... ) and can struggle in some instances particularly with small samples andnew classes. There are those who will defend the status quo and even be biased as well as having their own agendas but again that is a differnt point again . Regardless of the system double-handers have shown relative decline overall. Personally I think this is a pity and it may be one of the factors that has reduced the position of dinghy sailing overall. The 'traditonal' model by which a very great many became competent was not the 'RYA level whatsits' and formal sailing courses it was learning off other kids or adults at the front of a doubehander and occasionally helming or picking up the know-how of decent helms close-up in boats such as the Enterprise ... as well as simply 'mucking around in boats' without the strictures of a formal course. The 'young' have plenty of certificate chasing in their lives today already .. and the older novice is often ignored by the training infrastructure. Sailing should get you away from all that b*****s for a while imo... Double handers, sailing with friends or whoever builds real committment for the long term. So how to revive it then ? and is it worth it ? Mike L. |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 12:02pm
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Well whichever way you look at it and my tendency is to take a commercial and marketing viewpoint, something the RYA have been woefully inadequate at over the years, but nevertheless part of the RYA's marketing tools is the PY system, the RYA is or should be tasked with the marketing of the sport and as such is failing here.
I wonder if there even is a game plan, an overview, meetings to consider problematic areas, I very much doubt it. They probably leave that PYAG to their own devices without anyone realising the damage they're doing. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: GybeFunny
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 1:48pm
How can you say with one breath that the RYA should fudge PYs to encourage new double handed classes to take off and then in the next breath you are accusing them of gerrymandering (a word I am not familiar with but according to wikipedia it means establishing advantage by manipulation)? I very much doubt that many people buy a boat based on it having a PY that they believe makes it a bandit and if there are people like this I would suggest that they are sailing for the wrong reasons. It is widely acknowledged that a British Moth would be a bandit on my puddle and yet we dont have any at the club as people have chosen other boats that they prefer over this bandit. |
Posted By: iiitick
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 2:51pm
| Speaking of tripple handers I see thee are two 18' skiffs entered for Sailfest. That should help keep me amused! |
Posted By: iGRF
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 3:25pm
There is a long way between 1018 (the Tasar) and 969. Equally the Alto dropping from 935 to 912, both boats that would encourage entry level participants to double handed sailing are two examples, neither were exactly bandits to begin with. Nor am I suggesting that, it's an old argument been back and forth and I don't want to go over it again, but the elite tail is wagging the larger market dog and that market is entry level, without it natural wastage erodes the market even faster, which is what is happening to competition dinghy sailing. That and there appears to be no clear promotional organ encouraging adults into the sport whilst everyone already in it seems intent on putting as many obstacles in their path as possible, from snooty clubs, to complicated and intimidating rules and regulations. This is just another minor speed bump compared to the trauma of a nationals briefing to a neophyte, but then y'all have been neck deep in it for so long, you can't see it from the eyes of a newcomer. ------------- https://www.corekite.co.uk/snow-accessories-11-c.asp" rel="nofollow - Snow Equipment Deals https://www.corekite.co.uk" rel="nofollow - New Core Kite website |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 3:35pm
Why should the top of the sport (National Championships) dumb down to the needs of a beginner ... All sports are riddled with rules and regulations; sailing is no better or worse than anything else ... The trouble comes when newbies pitch up and can't be bothered (or don't have the brains) to read and understand the rules ... all sports have them and if you want to join in then read and understand them. Of course sailing has much more accessible racing and participation options at holiday companies, sailing schools and sailing clubs. The trouble comes when you get muppets who want to run before they can walk
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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 4:23pm
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Why should the top of the sport (National Championships) dumb down to the needs of a beginner ... etc etc Lets look at it another way. Do you want good numbers in the sport and at Championships ? Simple one this ...Yes or No ? If you do want participation today you have to not only encourage it but have a strategy and attitude that is welcoming. Do not patronise or even insult newcomers and the club 'middle of the fleet' guys and gals would be a reasonable start. 2/3rds of many nationals fleet will not even get close to winning a single race let alone a whole series in most classes. The 'middle of the fleet' and back are generally much more capable than you give them credit for anyway and all should want them there. Most are also realisitic about their real chances. They do it for other reasons, the occasional 'win' over friends and their regular rivals, the simple enjoyment of sailing close to (their or the) limits and of course the social side of it. Without them, the backbone of most clubs note, the next generation have nothing to race against and maybe if they decide that racing is not for them we all miss the elite of the future ... thats right their kids, their friends and the next generation they encourage. The trouble with any elite is not the fact that a small group can become very skilled indeed. It is the attitude of a few that can ultimately damage the sport out of all proportion to their numbers. I just hope not too many 'newbies' get to read some of the stuff on this forum .... not really going to get them enthused and into racing is it ? Mike L. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 5:57pm
Yep I agree with all of that but you don't have to throw out the rules & regs to make a championship accessible... I wouldn't turn up to say a golf national championship and expect them to accept me just hacking round the place counting only the swings that actually connected with the ball ... if they did allow that it would indeed make golf championships more accessible but perhaps they would be worse off for it. There is nothing wrong with rules; it is all about the style an manor in which they are implemented...
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Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 9:03pm
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There is nothing wrong with rules; it is all about the style an manor in which they are implemented...
On that we can agree at least ... but do try and see your prior posting through the eyes of a newcomer to racing. Most CA's try very very hard to encourage the uncommitted, the apprehensive and the newbies .... so easily undone by a few 'off the cuff' remarks. They come across as less than inclusive, helpful or welcoming at the very least. Mike L. |
Posted By: 2547
Date Posted: 07 Aug 14 at 9:27pm
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My comment was about a beginner. I wouldn't recommend a beginner to sailing pitch up to a nationals. It's likely to not be suitable for them just like I wouldn't take a beginner skiing down a black run. Beginners should be enjoying a friendly club, holiday company or sailing school. |
Posted By: Jon711
Date Posted: 08 Aug 14 at 1:55pm
Totally agree Mike, indeed as a helm one of my proudest moments was when we both rounded a mark at Stone in the top few boats, I was so surprised I managed to sail up your transom, however, I have far more, and many more succesful memories and results as a crew... Jon ------------- Blaze 711 |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 08 Aug 14 at 11:16pm
Great post, Mike  |