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Room to clear a moving obstruction
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SteveB00 View Drop Down
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Posts: 24 		Post Options Post Options   Quote SteveB00 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Room to clear a moving obstruction
    Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 11:15am
I was in a race this evening and, on starboard tack and beating to a windward mark, two boats on port tack approached on our port side. The boats were overlapped and I'll call the leeward boat L and the windward boat W.

There was some disagreement after the race about W's rights. My understanding of the situation is this:

If she'd wanted to, L could have hailed W to tack to avoid us and W would have had to respond by either tacking or hailing "You tack!" back at L, and then allowing L room to tack.

However, we were nearing the windward mark and neither port tack boat wanted to tack, and L came away just enough to pass behind us, but she didn't leave room for W to do the same,and W was forced to tack. I believe that, as a starboard tack boat, we were an obstruction to both L and W, and that, as L chose to pass to leeward of the obstruction, W could have hailed for room to pass to leeward also.

Someone else believed that, as W had the option of tacking to avoid us, she _didn't_ have rights to hail L for room to pass astern of us.

Who's right?

Thanks, in advance,
Steve  = : ^ )
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 12:07pm
I believe W has the option to either tack or call for room to pass astern of you. I am sure Brass or Gordon will see this and give their usual excellent explanations though.

Paul
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Brass View Drop Down
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 12:29pm
C'mon Paul, don't be lazy.

CASE 11
When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction.

Rule 19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.
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Posts: 611 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Noah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 1:34pm
19.2a looks like a red herring to me. In this case, W is NOT the RoW boat, is she? Ignoring the obstruction, L holds RoW. Does this change due to the introduction of the obstruction? If so, at what point does W acquire RoW?
19.2b says what case 11 above says...
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 2:49pm
Noah, I think the 2nd part of Brass's answer has to do with what would have happened if L had chosen to tack. But once the decision to bear away is made, then room must be made for both boats.
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 2:50pm
Originally posted by Brass

C'mon Paul, don't be lazy.

CASE 11
When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction.

Rule 19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.

Sorry work is manic at the moment!

But that is exactly what I was thinking of so W can either call for room or tack away. 
Paul
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6661 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 2:57pm
I imagine Brass meant to paste in 19.2 (b) as well

(b) When boats are overlapped, the outside boat shall give the
inside boat room between her and the obstruction, unless she
has been unable to do so from the time the overlap began.

I don't think there's no actual requirement for W to hail for the room, although it makes sense to do so.

So yeah, reckon the OP is correct.
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jan 14 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by jeffers

Originally posted by Brass

C'mon Paul, don't be lazy.

CASE 11
When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the obstruction.

Rule 19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on either side.

Sorry work is manic at the moment!

But that is exactly what I was thinking of so W can either call for room or tack away. 
Didn't mean to be snarky and apparently I was a bit cryptic <g>.

I think you are missing the point.

L, not W, is in control and has the choice which side of S to pass on.

L has the choice.

If she ducks behind S, she must also give W room in accordance with rule 19.2.

If she wishes to tack away, she may give a rule 20 hail and W must respond.

Nobody 'calls' for anything except a round of drinks afterwards.


Case 11 is the standard exposition of this situation and it's described in every commentary ever written.

CASE 11

Definition, Obstruction
Rule 14, Avoiding Contact
Rule 19.2(b), Room to Pass an Obstruction: Giving Room at an
Obstruction
Rule 20.1, Room to Tack at an Obstruction: Hailing
Rule 21(a), Exoneration

When boats are overlapped at an obstruction, including an
obstruction that is a right-of-way boat, the outside boat
must give the inside boat room to pass between her and the
obstruction.

Summary of the Facts





PW and PL, close-hauled on port tack and overlapped, approached S on
the windward leg. PL could pass safely astern of S. PW, on a collision
course with S, hailed PL for room to pass astern of S when PW and PL
were about three hull lengths from S. PL ignored the hail and maintained
her course. When PW bore away to avoid S, she and PL had slight beam72
to-beam contact with no damage or injury. PW protested under rule
19.2(b).

The protest committee held that rule 19.2(b) did not apply, stating that PW
could easily have tacked into the open water to windward to keep clear,
and should have done so. PW was disqualified under rule 11 and appealed.
Wind

Decision

S was an obstruction to PW and PL because both PW and PL would need
to change course substantially if they were sailing directly towards S and
were one hull length from her, and because they both were required by
rule 10 to keep clear of her (see the definition Obstruction). Under rule
19.2(a), PL, as the right-of-way boat, was entitled to pass S on either side.
She chose to pass to leeward of S. Therefore, under rule 19.2(b) PW was
entitled to room to pass between PL and the stern of S. PL did not give PW
that room, so PL broke rule 19.2(b). PL was subject to rule 14, but since
she held right of way over PW and there was no damage or injury, she is
exonerated for breaking that rule (see rule 14(b)).

PW could not have known that PL was not going to give sufficient room
until she was committed to pass between S and PL. PW broke rule 11, but
she did so while sailing within the room to which she was entitled by rule
19.2(b). Therefore, as required by rule 21(a), PW is exonerated for
breaking rule 11. Also, when it became clear that PL was not giving room,
it was not reasonably possible for PW to avoid the contact that occurred,
so PW did not break rule 14.

PW was not required to ‘tack into open water to windward to keep clear’
because PL did not hail under rule 20.1 for room to tack and avoid S. Had
PL hailed, PW would have been required by rules 20.2(b) and 20.2(c) to
respond even though rule 20.1(a) prohibited PL from hailing because she
did not have to make any change of course to avoid S.

PW’s appeal is upheld. The decision of the protest committee
disqualifying PW is reversed. PW is reinstated, and PL is disqualified for
breaking rule 19.2(b).



Edited by Brass - 06 Jan 14 at 9:32pm
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jeffers View Drop Down
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Posts: 3048 		Post Options Post Options   Quote jeffers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 2:31pm
Thanks Brass.

So L decides but if they decide to duck (or pass astern even if they do not need to change their course)  rather than tack they must also give room for W to pass astern.
Paul
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Posts: 1151 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Brass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jan 14 at 10:04pm
Yes.

Actually, in the scenario diagrammed in Case 11, PL may NOT hail for room to tack, because she is already sailing a course to pass clear astern of S, and thus she can avoid the obstruction safely without making a substantial course change, so rule 20.1( a ) cuts off her entitlement.
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