Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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List classes of boat for sale |
The Case for a VPP style handicap system. |
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iGRF ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 20 Dec 13 at 10:37am |
So for those who (like me until very recently)have no idea what a VPP system is, I found this on wiki I'd been basing my thoughts on the SCHRS method for Cats the general idea being that a fixed formula be used as an initial base for boats to be rated against as a performance guide.
My views on the current system is that however good it currently is and despite the hard work the boys in the back room do, it can never be all things to all people, now I also understand a pure measurement system cannot necessarily take into account the micro adjustments that can occur with certain development classes, but it can deliver on adjustments like weight, sail size, mast measurement and material and most important of all, it can put stability at the heart of the system if nothing materially alters in a boat design. If we take the case of the Solo, Streaker or Phantom, there were physical changes in weight, construction methods and possibly even hull form (this I do not know but surmise) either way, all points that could be mathematically calculated and a variation year on year spat out of a system. The benefit? Owners of older boats retain their original rating and only new boats get the faster (or slower) rating The benefit for reference by the Yardstick committee would be a fixed reference point, even the original system had the Island One Design as the null point of 100 about which to pivot other craft. This to my mind is the biggest failing that has resulted from the current system which appears to revolve about itself being pretty much statistically driven and many craft get lost (My own EPS case to point)or fail to register for years (My other boat, the Alto is an example of this). The 505 another example of a boat that has changed performance but with lack of activity in the inland water arenas of mass statistic generation has remained static. So, yes designers could vary their boats if they got to know the formala and how it worked, but hell who cares if a faster boat results, either change the formula to accomodate whatever miracle has resulted, or let things ride, there would at least be a scientific explanation rather than the smoke, mirrors and doubt that exists at present. Dinghies have a much broader range of performance than displacement yachts imv and the weather, planing and none planing conditions, foiling and none foiling, make the task impossible anyway, but if the boat is designed to foil then the formula records at that point, similarly if the boat is a planer then the optimum performance is the point at which the craft would be rated. Beyond that what the Yardstick system makes of it would be no better no worse than the state of affairs we currently enjoy, but at least if we had a scratch guide rating to start with, there could at least be a point of solid argument based in fact upon which to build. Is my thinking. So flame away and tear it to pieces.. Edited by iGRF - 20 Dec 13 at 10:39am |
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laser193713 ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 13 May 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 889 |
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Take a look at the VPRS rating system used on keelboats. I think Poole are the main adopters so far but it seems to provide good racing. I have raced under it once and the results seemed fair, but we won so I would say that
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hobbiteater ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 07 Dec 12 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 107 |
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from other thread - why cant you add wind as a factor? its not as if its hard to measure...
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maxibuddah ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 06 Mar 09 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1760 |
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But then the wind varies during a race especially evening racing when it often falls away
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Everything I say is my opinion, honest
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hobbiteater ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 07 Dec 12 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 107 |
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then take readings at various points or automate the measurement to get a total wind flux over the length of the race and use that
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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If you add wind then it seems perverse not to include wave height and length and tidal strength and direction which can be just as important...
Take the two boats I've sailed most, the Cherub and the Canoe. The Cherub has a downwind vmg something like 3 times that of the upwind at a guess, whilst in the Canoe they are fairly similar. So if its wind against tide the Canoe is stuck forever on long runs, whilst the Cherub romps away with short beats - at least until the waves get too extreme - whilst if its wind with tide the canoe zips up the beat in no time and is pushed down the run before the Cherub has time to get back again. |
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hobbiteater ![]() Posting king ![]() Joined: 07 Dec 12 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 107 |
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sounds fair
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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In this situation, the chances of a VPP managing to get fair racing between 2 such extreme hull shapes is pretty much zero, even with wind, waves and tide taken, in some magical way, into account. Even real life data, as per the PY system, struggles, and would even if both boats were as popular as a Laser. Theory would be a joke. I can see a VPP working for a narrow band of hull shapes designed specially for it, but not for the multitude of boats we have out there, even if someone had the time, expertise and money to measure every class, every variant of a class, every modified variant of a class ad-infinitum. But if it will only work for a narrow band of shapes, why not just set up a box rule and let people get on with it? |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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iGRF ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 07 Mar 11 Location: Hythe Online Status: Offline Posts: 6499 |
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What I had in mind, was a device, wether it were a website or a download, that you put your own measurements into, it then spits out your rating, it could be a certificate, it would quite literally be different for every boat that input it's details, so given two solos identical but for weight, they'd get a different rating.
In a perfect world, you could then apply for a personal handicap based on height, weight, experience even. Then like golf you race off your own adjusted handicap to start with and it only varies according to your experience/results or your equipment if anything changes. Then even One Design class racing would be fair(er). |
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Rupert ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Can we also measure hull stiffness ourselves? And do a swing test? And who has to measure each boat to check we haven't got it wrong or (whispers) lied?
Can we also get a dispensation for peeling paint slowing us down, or knackered old sails because we are too mean to buy new ones? |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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