Mark room or Port/Starboard

This happened yesterday and although I did eventually take turns after a long discussion between boats I am still not convinced I was wrong. 
sailing on a river and wind is light and direction erratic. Two boats reaching downriver on starboard to a mark to be left to starboard. Course away from mark is another reach/fetch on port back up river so boats will have to tack round the mark.

Lightning is ahead, Steaker behind goes to windward outside of 3 boat lengths, swift Luff by Lightning and Streaker bears away behind to go to leeward of Lightning. Streaker is overlapped ourtside as they enter 3 boat lenghts.

The Lightnings proper course is the tack round the mark and head back off up the river. Being inside boat Lightning tacks round the mark, not a good rounding as Steaker has held him tight and tide is pushing him away from the mark. Steaker hardens up calls starboard just as Lightning is competing the tack. Contact is made.

So Lighting arguement is that they had mark room, streaker should have given room to complete tack as this was the proper course.

Streaker arguement, mark room is irrelavent as Lightning had gone round the mark, port starboard applies.

I have read the rules and still am unsure who was right?

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Simon368 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 24 Aug 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Post Options Post Reply Quote Simon368 Report Post Quote Reply Topic: Mark room or Port/Starboard Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 3:41pm
	This happened yesterday and although I did eventually take turns after a long discussion between boats I am still not convinced I was wrong. sailing on a river and wind is light and direction erratic. Two boats reaching downriver on starboard to a mark to be left to starboard. Course away from mark is another reach/fetch on port back up river so boats will have to tack round the mark. Lightning is ahead, Steaker behind goes to windward outside of 3 boat lengths, swift Luff by Lightning and Streaker bears away behind to go to leeward of Lightning. Streaker is overlapped ourtside as they enter 3 boat lenghts. The Lightnings proper course is the tack round the mark and head back off up the river. Being inside boat Lightning tacks round the mark, not a good rounding as Steaker has held him tight and tide is pushing him away from the mark. Steaker hardens up calls starboard just as Lightning is competing the tack. Contact is made. So Lighting arguement is that they had mark room, streaker should have given room to complete tack as this was the proper course. Streaker arguement, mark room is irrelavent as Lightning had gone round the mark, port starboard applies. I have read the rules and still am unsure who was right?

craiggo Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 01 Apr 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1810	Post Options Post Reply Quote craiggo Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 4:07pm
	Given that contact was made (I assume you were Lightning), the correct course of action would be to protest the Streaker for causing a collision. If they thought you were in the wrong, they should have protested you rather than hitting you. Based on what you claim to be the events it is difficult to really be certain that Streaker didn't have an overlap at 3 boat lengths on the grounds that you luffed, therefore almost certainly creating the overlap. (As you luff the line drawn across your transom will rapidly move back down the course). Lets assume however that the Streaker dived below you prior to the 3 boat length circle, then you are entitled to make a mark rounding in a seamanlike manner and they must give you room to do so. Your description however is confusing at this point. If you were to windward of Streaker as you started to tack then he would sail past and the only chance of collision would be if he tacked onto port and then bore away into you, otherwise it suggests he was infact to windward of you and that you have tacked in his water. Id be interested to see a diagram or the other persons view!

Simon368 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 24 Aug 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Post Options Post Reply Quote Simon368 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 4:17pm
	The Streaker did not have and overlap which is why he went behind me as he was travelling faster. At this point the wind was at 90deg to our course. I was windward boat when I had rthe mark room and at the point I started to tack he had maybe a foot of overlap on the outside. So by just hardening up to close hauled he kept momentum against the tide whilst I slowed in the tack and the tide pushed be wide. Remember this was happening in slow motion against a strong tide.

JimC Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Visit Member's Homepage Really should get out more Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662	Post Options Post Reply Quote JimC Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 4:43pm
	Its always good to go to the Case book (http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/CaseBook20092012updatedNov2011-[11669].pdf with situations you aren't sure about. I think in this case I would be looking very hard at Case 15, Case 25 and Case 95. There's probably a bit more detail required to be 100% sure of the answer.

Simon368 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 24 Aug 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Post Options Post Reply Quote Simon368 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 5:01pm
	case 15 concerns a boat clear astern. A boat clear astern can stop a boat ahead tacking, simple but the Streaker was overlapped on the outside and obliged the give room. Both helms agree with this. Does this still mean the inside boat cannot tack round the mark. If so what was the point of getting the overlap? Case 25, Luightning to windward and with an overlap was not sailing below proper her course, Case 95 concerns beating, we were on a typical river course. reach down to a mark, tack round it reach back. I think the point in questions is whether the action of tacking from starboard to port whilst rounding the mark is allowed in rule 18 when the outside boat (on starboard) can alter course immediately you have tacked to make contact and call starboard.

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 6:11pm
	Surely there has to be time and opportunity to keep clear following the tack? If the tide is taking you, then opportunity is not there. And if you are still in the process of rounding the mark, then you still have mark room. And, as was said, if a boat deliberately luffs to hit you, they are in the wrong, whatever else happens.
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Simon368 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 24 Aug 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Post Options Post Reply Quote Simon368 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 8:04pm
	Hi Rupert, I dont think the tide is relavent as this would apply to any mark where you are reaching in to and away from the mark. The only proper course was to tack round the mark. The Streaker arguement was that once I had tacked the rounding was complete and only port / starboard applied. The question is does it?

Rupert Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956	Post Options Post Reply Quote Rupert Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 8:19pm
	I thought the tide was relevant because it was the tide which prevented you from moving forwards out of the way of the other boat after your tack. I'm pretty sure I've been in this situation on rivers many times, and boats arriving at the mark when the boats that are already there have "rounded" but are failing to move against the tide have to be avoided. If you try and get through the gap which is sometimes left in these cases you are in the wrong if you don't have the space you thought you might, so I really can't see how the boat on Starboard can luff into you at all.
	Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686

Presuming Ed Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Really should get out more Joined: 26 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 641	Post Options Post Reply Quote Presuming Ed Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 8:44pm
	Mark-Room Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then room to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark-room does not include room to tack unless the boat is overlapped to windward and on the inside of the boat required to give mark-room. 18.1 When Rule 18 Applies Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. Best to draw a picture. Boat Scenario is free. http://boats.sourceforge.net/ Fundamentally - where was the mark when contact made? Edited by Presuming Ed - 17 Dec 12 at 8:50pm

Simon368 Send Private Message Find Member's Posts Newbie Joined: 24 Aug 10 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 20	Post Options Post Reply Quote Simon368 Report Post Quote Reply Posted: 17 Dec 12 at 8:48pm
	Just re-read my post and realised the phrase 'tide was pushing me off' has been misunderstood. I was heading into the tide as I approached the mark and was leaving enough room to make sure the tide did not push me onto it.