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tickler View Drop Down
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    Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 9:02am

Has anyone read Frank Bethwaite's report to the World Tasar Council published on its website? In this report he maintains that the Tasar has a future because it is is the fastest boat which a "natural sailor" can sail fast and exploit  its performance  as distinct from a "fast sailor" who has the ability to sail faster boats faster and  expliot there performance...........I think that's what he means anyway. Certainly we do find the Tasar a pleasure to sail because of its simplicity and dynamics. Close yor eyes in a blow and it feels like a skiff  (well dont close your eyes realy but you know what I mean).  You might of course think that fun comes from extending your ability rather than accepting  its limits. After all that is development. It may also be however that Mr Bethwaite has a rather blinkered view which only sees boats of his own design. It's a big jump from a Tasar to a B14 or 29er but perhaps not so far to a Fireball. Discuss!
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 10:04am
FB is always interesting, because he does think deeply about this stuff. With his simulator he's probably been able to watch more sailors at close hand than most of us, and I can see what he means.

What I think he's talking about with the Natural against Fast Sailor bit is suggesting that the Tasar is about the top of the speed range which can be handled by a sailor who doesn't get training and coaching, and is thus potentially less intimidating for the mass market sailor.

When you look at the popularity of boats there is no doubt, for all the noise, that high performance boats just aren't selling in numbers, and the most popular boats are pretty much in the area where his "Natural" sailors can survive without being horizoned.

On the other hand every now and then you can catch him out on a demonstrable inaccuracy. The 29erXX price being half of the other Hyeres contenders for instance just isn't true.

But I also wonder if this natural/fast divide will continue... As far as I can see the vast majority of youngsters taught to sail at my club are learning "fast" techniques. If this is true right round the country how many "natural" sailors will there be in thirty years?
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Posts: 128 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fin. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 10:39am

didn't  FB design the TASAR to have similar  performance/speed as a 505, but more manageable... thought I had read that somewhere. ?
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Posts: 0 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 10:44am

I am struggling with definitions here - what is the difference between fast & natural?

Seems to me people with a natural talent to feel a boat go the fastest.

Or are we suggesting natural means tactically capable?
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Posts: 128 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Fin. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 10:46am

fast and natural .... not sure, but  I think I'll dig out my copy of "High Performance Sailing" - I imagine  FB has  written a few pages on the subject!

 
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 12:19pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

I am struggling with definitions here - what is the difference between fast & natural?



FB seems to be saying that if you just chuck someone in a boat they'll tend to sail in a "natural" manner that will get them round the track, but maybe isn't as fast as it might be...

This “Natural” handling technique is so universally adopted because –
• It is simple to learn, because
o It is consistent, and
o It calls for no conscious coordination.
• With it a sailor can sail yachts, catamarans and unballasted dinghies up to about Tasar and scow Moth performance level almost as fast as a sailor who uses fast handling technique, but can do this [only whilst not seriously pverpowered]


Things that are counter intuitive and don't apply all the time, like bearing off in gusts downwind but easing sheets/luffing in gusts upwind, are what he defines as "fast" sailing.

Its here, but like a lot of FB's stuff needs reading carefully and more than once.http://www.tasar.org/wtca/agendas/designer_07.html

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 3:25pm
Originally posted by JimC



Its here, but like a lot of FB's stuff needs reading carefully and more than
once.http://
www.tasar.org/wtca/agendas/designer_07.html


Thanks for that, it just seems to be an unfortunate choice of definition,
personally I wouldn't have chosen the term "natural" since it implies some
inbred auto ability whereas all he's describing is a cruising sailors
approach as against a racing sailors technique imho.

Good to see my technique has now evolved beyond 'natural' to fast, even
if it means the 'fast' sometimes consigns me to the water.

My gybe success rate has at least improved since I hung about
evesdropping a 'basic' sailing lesson up at Rutland whilst on a
windsurfing demo and learned the "L" technique, its made all the
difference, well until Sunday when I accidently italicised the "L" during
the fastest gybe of the day and the main sheet became involved with it as
it swung across, damn nuisance having the rear sheeting, all that rope so
close to the steering.
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mike ellis View Drop Down
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Posts: 2339 		Post Options Post Options   Quote mike ellis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 5:17pm
whats this "L" technique for gybes? heard of S gybes but never an L gybe.
600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it.
Also International 14, 1318
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Posts: 3941 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Black no sugar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 5:40pm

Chicken gybes are not a bad thing; it would have avoided me a swim on Sunday!
Lancing SC
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tickler View Drop Down
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Posts: 895 		Post Options Post Options   Quote tickler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 9:52pm
You know, this is an interesting subject. Any class racing fleet, and I have seen a few, irrespective of fast boats or slow boats is split into 3 seperate fleets............ plus a few boats. One third are no hopers but having fun. One third are in the middle. The third third? are competative and trying hard. At the top  are the few boats in with a chance. Is this an indication of the difference between "fast" and "natural"? At the Lightning 368 nats last weekend this phenomenon was clearly demonstrated. 20 boats only 4 with a chance (and one wild card) all those 4 sailors  had won the nationals before. Conditions favoured one of those sailors and he won. The others were 2nd, 3rd and 4th but all very close. no one else had a look in. I am sure that if those sailors entered another class they would soon be at the top again, given the obvious practice ect. Look at Steve Cockerill. My boy, previous double Lightning Champion, but only P4 this year, is now sailing a B14 so let us see what happens to him.
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