Natural sailors ?
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=3293
Printed Date: 19 Aug 25 at 4:14am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Natural sailors ?
Posted By: tickler
Subject: Natural sailors ?
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 9:02am
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Has anyone read Frank Bethwaite's report to the World Tasar Council published on its website? In this report he maintains that the Tasar has a future because it is is the fastest boat which a "natural sailor" can sail fast and exploit its performance as distinct from a "fast sailor" who has the ability to sail faster boats faster and expliot there performance...........I think that's what he means anyway. Certainly we do find the Tasar a pleasure to sail because of its simplicity and dynamics. Close yor eyes in a blow and it feels like a skiff (well dont close your eyes realy but you know what I mean). You might of course think that fun comes from extending your ability rather than accepting its limits. After all that is development. It may also be however that Mr Bethwaite has a rather blinkered view which only sees boats of his own design. It's a big jump from a Tasar to a B14 or 29er but perhaps not so far to a Fireball. Discuss! |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 10:04am
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FB is always interesting, because he does think deeply about this stuff. With his simulator he's probably been able to watch more sailors at close hand than most of us, and I can see what he means.
What I think he's talking about with the Natural against Fast Sailor bit is suggesting that the Tasar is about the top of the speed range which can be handled by a sailor who doesn't get training and coaching, and is thus potentially less intimidating for the mass market sailor. When you look at the popularity of boats there is no doubt, for all the noise, that high performance boats just aren't selling in numbers, and the most popular boats are pretty much in the area where his "Natural" sailors can survive without being horizoned. On the other hand every now and then you can catch him out on a demonstrable inaccuracy. The 29erXX price being half of the other Hyeres contenders for instance just isn't true. But I also wonder if this natural/fast divide will continue... As far as I can see the vast majority of youngsters taught to sail at my club are learning "fast" techniques. If this is true right round the country how many "natural" sailors will there be in thirty years? |
Posted By: Fin.
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 10:39am
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didn't FB design the TASAR to have similar performance/speed as a 505, but more manageable... thought I had read that somewhere. ? |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 10:44am
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I am struggling with definitions here - what is the difference between fast & natural? Seems to me people with a natural talent to feel a boat go the fastest. Or are we suggesting natural means tactically capable? ------------- |
Posted By: Fin.
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 10:46am
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fast and natural .... not sure, but I think I'll dig out my copy of "High Performance Sailing" - I imagine FB has written a few pages on the subject!
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Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 12:19pm
FB seems to be saying that if you just chuck someone in a boat they'll tend to sail in a "natural" manner that will get them round the track, but maybe isn't as fast as it might be...
Things that are counter intuitive and don't apply all the time, like bearing off in gusts downwind but easing sheets/luffing in gusts upwind, are what he defines as "fast" sailing. Its here, but like a lot of FB's stuff needs reading carefully and more than once. http://www.tasar.org/wtca/agendas/designer_07.html - http://www.tasar.org/wtca/agendas/designer_07.html |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 3:25pm
Thanks for that, it just seems to be an unfortunate choice of definition, personally I wouldn't have chosen the term "natural" since it implies some inbred auto ability whereas all he's describing is a cruising sailors approach as against a racing sailors technique imho. Good to see my technique has now evolved beyond 'natural' to fast, even if it means the 'fast' sometimes consigns me to the water. My gybe success rate has at least improved since I hung about evesdropping a 'basic' sailing lesson up at Rutland whilst on a windsurfing demo and learned the "L" technique, its made all the difference, well until Sunday when I accidently italicised the "L" during the fastest gybe of the day and the main sheet became involved with it as it swung across, damn nuisance having the rear sheeting, all that rope so close to the steering. |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 5:17pm
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whats this "L" technique for gybes? heard of S gybes but never an L gybe. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Black no sugar
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 5:40pm
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Chicken gybes are not a bad thing; it would have avoided me a swim on Sunday!
------------- http://www.lancingsc.org.uk/index.html - Lancing SC 
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Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 16 Aug 07 at 9:52pm
| You know, this is an interesting subject. Any class racing fleet, and I have seen a few, irrespective of fast boats or slow boats is split into 3 seperate fleets............ plus a few boats. One third are no hopers but having fun. One third are in the middle. The third third? are competative and trying hard. At the top are the few boats in with a chance. Is this an indication of the difference between "fast" and "natural"? At the Lightning 368 nats last weekend this phenomenon was clearly demonstrated. 20 boats only 4 with a chance (and one wild card) all those 4 sailors had won the nationals before. Conditions favoured one of those sailors and he won. The others were 2nd, 3rd and 4th but all very close. no one else had a look in. I am sure that if those sailors entered another class they would soon be at the top again, given the obvious practice ect. Look at Steve Cockerill. My boy, previous double Lightning Champion, but only P4 this year, is now sailing a B14 so let us see what happens to him. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 8:32am
It maybe what they teach beginners, but it works well for me. You flap the tiller extension away from you before the gybe, it makes an L shape and it's supposed to keep it away from rear sheet rope travellers I guess.. As to gybing and having shown a sailing instructor how to do it better when she came in our boat, we do it the same as windsurfing, sail low and come out low, well as low as it'll stay on the plane at least. But I think it takes a windsurfers "sense" of where the wind is and what its doing in the transition, cos "they" (Proper sailing Instructor types at least the ones we get round here) always seem to come out of the gybe too high which is o.k. on a less weight sensitive boat, but on ours which is extremely twitchy and we're close to the max crew weight come out to high and you're over. So now, what's an "S" gybe? and what's a "Chicken gybe? |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 9:23am
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Don't think that's actually true. I've seen a number of "no hopers" turn into regular winners over the years, so presumably they were in fact trying all along. Plus everyone is actually in with a chance. With a good start and a couple of lucky windshifts, most of the fleet can manage a win once in a while. It happens. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 9:30am
I'd hope EVERYONE is having fun regardless of their position in the fleet and as Stefan points out people seem to get better over time, I am sure everyone wants to improve regardless of their position in the fleet and as such everyone is "trying" ------------- |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 9:36am
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in the S gybe you bear away do the gybe then point the back down wind quickly after the gybe to take the power off.gives a nice S shape. it takes the sting out of the gybe and gives you more time to find all the right bits of string. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 10:06am
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O.K. so the S thing is pretty much what we do anyhow, just don't harden up
til you're ready - Chicken Gybing isn't actually gybing then its sailing past the mark, tacking then bearing off again.. Er it has been known to happen especially during a "dolphin attack" but a bit tricky with a spinnaker up.. |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 10:54am
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I've tacked a 38 footer with the spinnaker up. It was an emergency avoidance maneouvre but I don't really recommend it as it took quite some time to disentangle the mess. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 11:35am
Possible on a leadmine with all that momentum but not so easy in a lightweight dinghy. I have managed to tack the kite on the MPS in about 3 knots of breeze on a odd course ... but any more than that and you'd not make it. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 12:02pm
Funny so have I - but that was before I had any idea at all, seemed easier than getting it down then putting it back up again.. 
Doddsy should be getting his replacement mast back soon, about ready to be taking another thrashing from a girlies boat, wont be long before we head over to Whitstable to see how the inbreds are doing.. |
Posted By: HannahJ
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 3:09pm
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Going back a bit, I've aways called chcken gybes "wearing round" and iIve found it's actually quicker to be brave and gybe because you end up pointing quite high and not being where you want to be.
------------- MIRROR 64799 "Dolphin" The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist hopes it will change; the realist adjusts the sail |
Posted By: Ian99
Date Posted: 17 Aug 07 at 8:57pm
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"Chicken Gybes" (i.e. not gybing!) are actually only "safer" (in the sense of avoiding a capsize not hitting your head ) in really heavy boats such as Wayfarers, Kestrels etc. that don't continually plane downwind even when its really windy. In any boat that planes, there's a far greater chance of capsizing on the head up before the tack or the bear away after than there would be in just gently flicking the mainsail across at a choice moment. I do remember once on a really gusty day with a really bad wind against tide chop when I ended up sailing about half a mile beyond the gybe mark waiting for that choice moment though ....... even though it made the second reach nearly a fetch we still overtook plenty of boats who nosedived and capsized by chucking the boat straight round at the mark!! |
Posted By: mike ellis
Date Posted: 18 Aug 07 at 9:53am
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in a laser its when it gets realy windy its actually quicker to piss it in at the gybe mark and do a dry capsiize than it is to sail off and tack round. ------------- 600 732, will call it Sticks and Stones when i get round to it. Also International 14, 1318 |
Posted By: ColH
Date Posted: 18 Aug 07 at 12:17pm
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More technical terms! ------------- |
Posted By: Chris 249
Date Posted: 20 Aug 07 at 2:22am
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I did a bit of Tasar coaching, and I'm not quite sure that there's a big
dividing line between those who sail in the two styles Frank describes. For instance, the average yachty has known to steer for balance downwind for decades and many of them couldn't get a Laser or Tasar or skiff around the course very well. Still, Frank is always thought provoking and very interesting. He's definitely inspiring. On the picky note - he's wrong about the Patiki being the first OD, that was clearly the North Haven Dinghy or the Water Wag, depending on your definition of OD class. They were both racing in 1887. And the Sunfish was a "Laser style" SMOD with world titles for years before the Laser came out. Neil I think you can "granny around" (as we call it here) quicker than capsize and re-right IF you've practised grannying a bit. |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 22 Aug 07 at 4:55pm
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this thing with the chicken gybing is interesting, over the years I've
found lots of places can be made in the breezy stuff by picking your
moment to gybe ... I find there's a fixation with turning tight to the
mark that makes the brave try to gybe right on it (some fall in, often
causing a pile-up behind them) or some tack and 'wear round' or
whatever the term is, but by just timing it so you gybe in a lull you
can make up (lots of) places. It's suprising (constantly) the number of people who fail to look over their shoulder for what the gusts are doing before committing to a gybe when it's breezy... leaving them with that "oh b$gger it" face while standing on the board trying to get the boat upright again afterwards....
------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: winging it
Date Posted: 23 Aug 07 at 8:28pm
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Back to the bit about 'natural sailors'.....being a 'proper' sailing instructor I've come across plenty of hamfisted beginners who always struggle to get to grips with even the most basic dinghy - and so what, just so long as they're safe and enjoying themselves. More often than not they come back for more and eventually turn into competent club racers. But once in a while you'll get an outstanding individual who picks it up just like that, instinctively knows what to do with the boat and intuitively knows where the wind is coming from. Those are the natural sailors, in my opinion, and the point about a boat like a tasar is that, since it is relatively uncomplicated, such a sailor can become successful in one relatively quickly. There's no doubt that to be successful on a larger scale such sailors have to put in the hours on the water, but the outcome for these guys is that ultimately they win medals, whereas the rest of us just dream.... A note on dinghy instructors: I did my SI ticket recently and was surprised by how many DIs did little or no racing. The problem here is that they do not then learn many of the 'tricks of the trade' that the racing sailor picks up as they learn to sail boats faster, such as effective ways to gybe in a blow. However, most DIs don't need to know this stuff: the RYA Method is very prescriptive - there's little or no scope for individuality, especially when teaching beginners - but the RYA Method is also phenomenally effective - easily the best teaching scheme in the world. |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 24 Aug 07 at 7:29am
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I do agree with most of what you say. When children take sailing lessons they are, most often, happy to splash about. A few of them will get the bug and go on to sail, some go on to race. Adult trainees are not interested in the splashing and so the training is taken more seriously. As you say some trainees just do not ever seem to grasp the basic principals whilst others quickly do and probably would have done without the lessons. These are natural sailors. Some of them will refine the art through racing and become "fast" sailors. Incidentaly Tasar's are uncomplicated........but in a sophisticated way! That is why they are great. |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 24 Aug 07 at 9:40am
I did a season in Menorca and I found typically adult women progressed faster than the men ... I put this down mostly to them listening more to the instruction ... bit of a generalisation but it was my obervation. ------------- |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 24 Aug 07 at 11:48am
Eh? ------------- |
Posted By: andymck
Date Posted: 24 Aug 07 at 7:22pm
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Recently went to a lecture by an educationalist, who said there was no such thing as natural ability or talent, and that skilled tasks were down to practice, and the ability to learn. Personally I thought he just redefined talent as the ability to learn faster. Certainly the fastest guys tend to be the ones who have done the most, and stuck through the hard times and learnt. Maybe explains why there are some "talented" sailors who dont know how they get to the front as it has become instinctive, and some who are unbeatable at there home clubs, but cant transfer the speed to elsewhere. ------------- Andy Mck |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 24 Aug 07 at 11:36pm
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It's interesting to see how some people get very good in their class but cant tranfer that to another class ... ------------- |
Posted By: tickler
Date Posted: 25 Aug 07 at 1:33am
| I believe that Jack Nickalaus (a golfaller) hit a ball which seemed to be freakishly successful. A spectator called out "You were lucky there Jack". Jack replied "Do you know, the more I practice the luckier I get". However perhaps learning and the processing of that learned knowledge is a talent in its self. Mind you I never learned anything. |