Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Are one designs really all equal ?? |
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limey ![]() Groupie ![]() Joined: 21 Dec 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 46 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 05 Nov 06 at 9:59am |
Having read Mark Rushalls recent article on one designs im not so sure hes right. He says its the only way to dismiss the notion that your boat isnt as fast as somebody elses. So why do the top Laser sailors buy Aussie boats. Ive known of lasers and Rs,s which no matter who sails them are real dogs. And on the other hand there have also been cases of sailors who seem to win everything until they replace their boat !!!
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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For most of us who sail more open rules boats, and seem to have just as close racing as the one designs, the way apparently miniscule changes in design can be held to cause massive differences in boat speed can be quite puzzling. And in any case in any fleet the postion in the fleet is probably 75% sailor 20% boat prep and sails and maybe 5% boat shape.
But there's no doubt sailors believe these differences are there, and boat speed is so much a head game that maybejust that belief is enough to make a difference... I don't think in any class I've been in I've been able to confidently say who's fast because of their boat and who's fast in spite of it... Edited by JimC |
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Jack Sparrow ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 08 Feb 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2965 |
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I haven't read the article but... I'm sure that there must be some duff One Design hulls, mast's or sails that get into the market. May be as a result of Friday afternoon tiredness? And may be because of the nature of One Design sailing these boats show up more, and cause a kind of Chinese Whisper effect. And hence a sort Urban Myth. This effect may also work the other way, for fast boats. Because as Jim says, it can be a big head game. And the human species is quite effected by the 'Herd' effect.
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Medway Maniac ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 13 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2788 |
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I know that at least one SMOD from a major manufacturer had a + or - 10% allowance on the hull weight; that's about 16kg! Then again, a friend measured the weight of three SMOD boats from an (the) other major manufacturer and found very substantial differences in hull weight orf something like a stone (to mix my units). Something to think about, you SMOD'ers, next time you're grinding upwind, leg muscles burning, or when somebody seems to catch a puff and sails away from you downwind... Let there be no more of this 'level playing field' talk, at least in relation to large manufacturer SMOD's. |
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CT249 ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 08 Jul 06 Online Status: Offline Posts: 399 |
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Having sailed heavy and old SMODs, I know next time someone seems to catch a puff and sail away from me, I'll blame the way I'm sailing first and foremost.
How does everyone else know that they are sailing perfectly and therefore any holes in their performance are down to their boat? In one of my SMODS, I can't point upwind in the light for peanuts, but I do well beating in a breeze. In other SMODS, I kick ass upwind in light. In one of those I get killed by the national champion upwind in a breeze but rule downwind; in the other I fly upwind in a breeze but used to get dorked downwind when I had a brand-new boat. Now I have a 25 year old heap I'm quicker. The new boat was definitely not at all slow, but sailing other classes may have improved my touch (which wasn't bad to start with). Since one person can have such variation in their own ability, from condition to condition and class to class, how come so many people know that all their boatspeed fluctuations are the boat's fault? I do know one guy who had a slow Laser, he feels. It was in the worlds, and he went from 7th (or so) one year, to 3rd next year, and then to about 17th when he had the dog. But almost no one outside a Worlds team would be able to really notice the sort of speed difference that takes you from 3 to 17 in a Laser worlds. The only thing about the old development v OD drama I may add is that if the development classes DON'T get significantly faster as they develop, then surely they're not actually providing the improvement in design they claim to be? |
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Stefan Lloyd ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 03 Aug 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1599 |
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There are well-documented large variations in hull weight in a SMOD keelboat class from a well-known manufacturer; certainly significant enough to cause performance variations. Someone took the trouble to collate several dozen weighings. I've never seen a similar systematic survey of a SMDO dinghy class but I wouldn't be surprised if there were sometimes the same kind of variations.
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tickel ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 21 Dec 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 408 |
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SMOD's may be one design but the manufacturer cannot measure every string or mark every setting. My sons very successfull single hander, two national champs ect., is set up just the way he likes it and sails very differently to other boats in the class. I believe that in close racing conditions these personal "default" settings can make all the difference. We all worry about wieght but if you think that your boat is a little bit too heavy, just miss you breakfast and make sure your bowels are clear !
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tickel
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Guest ![]() Newbie ![]() Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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If you are worried about hull weight the ask you supplier what the hull weight is and the tollerance and then weigh your boat when you collect it - before you pay. If it's a second hand boat then weigh it before you buy. Rick |
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getafix ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 28 Mar 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 2143 |
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You have to be realistic is this debate, it's an old chesnut really and
it's not fair to compare SMODs anddev classes because the same adage
rings true - it's boat handling and reading the conditions that puts
the likes of Nick Craig, Mike McNamara and Richard Estaugh at the front
consistenly, not a few kg's either way... in a perfectly level,
intensively measured world (e.g. Olympics) the best sailors win that's
why Ben Ainslie turns up having sailed a finn for 5 minutes and
dominates a world class field - not 'cos his carbon tiller extension
was lighter than someone elses'
As for weighing boats before you buy 2nd hand.... easier said than done ![]() |
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Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one
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far canal ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Feb 06 Location: Micronesia Online Status: Offline Posts: 110 |
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Are one designs really all equal ??
No
some are more equal than others . |
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