Are one designs really all equal ??
Printed From: Yachts and Yachting Online
Category: Dinghy classes
Forum Name: Dinghy development
Forum Discription: The latest moves in the dinghy market
URL: http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2398
Printed Date: 17 Aug 25 at 2:21pm
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.665y - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Are one designs really all equal ??
Posted By: limey
Subject: Are one designs really all equal ??
Date Posted: 05 Nov 06 at 9:59am
| Having read Mark Rushalls recent article on one designs im not so sure hes right. He says its the only way to dismiss the notion that your boat isnt as fast as somebody elses. So why do the top Laser sailors buy Aussie boats. Ive known of lasers and Rs,s which no matter who sails them are real dogs. And on the other hand there have also been cases of sailors who seem to win everything until they replace their boat !!! |
Replies:
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 05 Nov 06 at 12:40pm
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For most of us who sail more open rules boats, and seem to have just as close racing as the one designs, the way apparently miniscule changes in design can be held to cause massive differences in boat speed can be quite puzzling. And in any case in any fleet the postion in the fleet is probably 75% sailor 20% boat prep and sails and maybe 5% boat shape.
But there's no doubt sailors believe these differences are there, and boat speed is so much a head game that maybejust that belief is enough to make a difference... I don't think in any class I've been in I've been able to confidently say who's fast because of their boat and who's fast in spite of it... |
Posted By: Jack Sparrow
Date Posted: 05 Nov 06 at 5:30pm
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I haven't read the article but... I'm sure that there must be some duff One Design hulls, mast's or sails that get into the market. May be as a result of Friday afternoon tiredness? And may be because of the nature of One Design sailing these boats show up more, and cause a kind of Chinese Whisper effect. And hence a sort Urban Myth. This effect may also work the other way, for fast boats. Because as Jim says, it can be a big head game. And the human species is quite effected by the 'Herd' effect. ------------- http://www.uk3-7class.org/index.html" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Class Website https://www.facebook.com/groups/1092602470772759/" rel="nofollow - Farr 3.7 Building - Facebook Group |
Posted By: Medway Maniac
Date Posted: 05 Nov 06 at 9:04pm
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I know that at least one SMOD from a major manufacturer had a + or - 10% allowance on the hull weight; that's about 16kg! Then again, a friend measured the weight of three SMOD boats from an (the) other major manufacturer and found very substantial differences in hull weight orf something like a stone (to mix my units). Something to think about, you SMOD'ers, next time you're grinding upwind, leg muscles burning, or when somebody seems to catch a puff and sails away from you downwind... Let there be no more of this 'level playing field' talk, at least in relation to large manufacturer SMOD's. |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 7:25am
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Having sailed heavy and old SMODs, I know next time someone seems to catch a puff and sail away from me, I'll blame the way I'm sailing first and foremost. How does everyone else know that they are sailing perfectly and therefore any holes in their performance are down to their boat? In one of my SMODS, I can't point upwind in the light for peanuts, but I do well beating in a breeze. In other SMODS, I kick ass upwind in light. In one of those I get killed by the national champion upwind in a breeze but rule downwind; in the other I fly upwind in a breeze but used to get dorked downwind when I had a brand-new boat. Now I have a 25 year old heap I'm quicker. The new boat was definitely not at all slow, but sailing other classes may have improved my touch (which wasn't bad to start with). Since one person can have such variation in their own ability, from condition to condition and class to class, how come so many people know that all their boatspeed fluctuations are the boat's fault? I do know one guy who had a slow Laser, he feels. It was in the worlds, and he went from 7th (or so) one year, to 3rd next year, and then to about 17th when he had the dog. But almost no one outside a Worlds team would be able to really notice the sort of speed difference that takes you from 3 to 17 in a Laser worlds. The only thing about the old development v OD drama I may add is that if the development classes DON'T get significantly faster as they develop, then surely they're not actually providing the improvement in design they claim to be? |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 8:07am
| There are well-documented large variations in hull weight in a SMOD keelboat class from a well-known manufacturer; certainly significant enough to cause performance variations. Someone took the trouble to collate several dozen weighings. I've never seen a similar systematic survey of a SMDO dinghy class but I wouldn't be surprised if there were sometimes the same kind of variations. |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 8:13am
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SMOD's may be one design but the manufacturer cannot measure every string or mark every setting. My sons very successfull single hander, two national champs ect., is set up just the way he likes it and sails very differently to other boats in the class. I believe that in close racing conditions these personal "default" settings can make all the difference. We all worry about wieght but if you think that your boat is a little bit too heavy, just miss you breakfast and make sure your bowels are clear ! ------------- tickel |
Posted By: Guest
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 9:43am
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If you are worried about hull weight the ask you supplier what the hull weight is and the tollerance and then weigh your boat when you collect it - before you pay. If it's a second hand boat then weigh it before you buy. Rick ------------- |
Posted By: getafix
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 2:25pm
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You have to be realistic is this debate, it's an old chesnut really and
it's not fair to compare SMODs anddev classes because the same adage
rings true - it's boat handling and reading the conditions that puts
the likes of Nick Craig, Mike McNamara and Richard Estaugh at the front
consistenly, not a few kg's either way... in a perfectly level,
intensively measured world (e.g. Olympics) the best sailors win that's
why Ben Ainslie turns up having sailed a finn for 5 minutes and
dominates a world class field - not 'cos his carbon tiller extension
was lighter than someone elses' As for weighing boats before you buy 2nd hand.... easier said than done  ------------- Feeling sorry for vegans since it became the latest fad to claim you are one |
Posted By: far canal
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 2:40pm
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Are one designs really all equal ??
No
some are more equal than others . |
Posted By: Granite
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 8:37pm
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What I would like to see would be a SMOD made a bit under weight then brought up to full with some lead. Would create a level playing field at least as far as weight is concerned for the first few years of a boats life. Trouble is it might just cut the number of new boats that get sold ------------- If it doesn't break it's too heavy; if it does it wasn't built right |
Posted By: sailorguy
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 9:16pm
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too much hassle for too little gain, well in most people's opinion anyway
------------- RS 500 (twin wire) Laser 157607 Laser 85446 Pico 2136 |
Posted By: CT249
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 9:39pm
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Sounds like Tasars; many of them carry kilos of lead to get to the class minimum of 68kg. Others were made heavy (due to requirement for increased strength for a while, and changed in layup). I think the Navy fleet, which used to be used for Teams Racing nationals and Australia's version of the Endeavour Trophy, ranged from about 65/66kg to about 73+kg. Apparently statistical analysis showed no advantage to any particular boat, over many years of swap-boat round-robin racing. In my first SMOD-type nats, the heaviest boat was third. The third-heaviest boat (chartered) was first. The two-time world champ skipper and the America's Cup winning trimmer who sailed the winning boat never commented on the extra weight of the boat. It was handed back to the owner and went straight to the back of the club fleet. I saw the boat a couple of years later; the owner reckoned that it was too slow to even sail in the One Design fleet, so he was sailing it in the handicap fleet. Classic case of blaming the boat. The fast guys didn't blame the boat but worked on their sailing, and won the nats. The slow guys blamed the boat, and finished last in club. |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 06 Nov 06 at 10:08pm
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Reckon as has been mentioned before, it's builder dependant. There will be tolerances where the manufacturer adheres to but they can't get all boats on a magic number for weight, unless as Granite mentioned they brought the boats up to weight with lead. For the folks who get the lighter boats, when turning up to events, reckon they would prefer to choose where they put their corrector weights opposed to a builder gluing them into the transom or something. Other factors need to be considered as well as hull weight, certain masts will be stiffer than others, certain foils finished slightly better than others... At the end of the day you can sit and think about why your boat is slower than others of the same design but reckon that much more can be gained from assessing your own performance where SMODs are concerned. (Sorry CT249 if I'm reitterating your post a bit) ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: Stefan Lloyd
Date Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 7:28am
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More level but still not "level". Boats with weight in the middle (like a lump of lead) are quicker than boats with weight in the ends, especially in waves. Some classes actually measure this ("radius of gyration"). Keelboat sailors always concentrate moveable weight in the centre of the boat for this reason. It's a bit of a hot topic in the Merlins at the moment, since some recent hulls are carrying huge amount of lead (and going very quickly).
|
Posted By: JimC
Date Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 9:13am
Close enough with boats built to the same laminate and layup spec though. Especially if the weights are laminated into the structure and invisible to the sailors so that there are no head games involved. Interesting to consider that a class with tight onedesign rules including weight limits (in this respect at least) will actually have boats that are closer together than many single manufacturer classes... |
Posted By: catmandoo
Date Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 10:14am
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Someone mentions Tasars above , yet another one design that when you get one you discover there can be more differences than weight , Tasars have over the years have even been constructed differently , good news though is that the very old ones used a kevlar layup and are still competitive ------------- |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 10:17am
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Simple answer is of course no but..... As mentioned in previous posts the really good guys will win no matter what boat they are sailing. They concentrate on the biggest variable of all...the loose nut on the tiller! As for the Blaze class which is SMOD there are variances. The biggest what the change from 'Mk1' to 'X' where the sail plan was modified and the centreboard changed. However history still shows that the good guys are still at the front whether they are in a Mk1 or and X. Even in the X range there is some variance. I own the second X built, it is (apparently) built lighter than the following boats. Nice for head games in the dinghy park (light heartedly of course) but on the water no real difference. In fact I would argue that while I might plane slughtly earlier than a haveier boat, they have additional momentum there for keep going faster for longer (good old inertia). Just my 2p as always.... Paul PS I find it is alsways the loose nut the causes all the speed problems ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: blaze720
Date Posted: 07 Nov 06 at 6:31pm
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But do tell everyone that nearly every Blaze has adopted the current slightly smaller sailplan (its 60 minutes to convert) the 'switch was nearly six years ago after all. Also that all boats came and still come out of the same mould are fully foamed and we all have the same stick (M7) etc etc. No-one can buy 'flat' sails or 'full' sails and they are single sourced - and there are quite a few other SMOD's where the sails have been altered more than once over time. There is a little variance in weight of course but the Blaze is not unique there either and the very low rocker seems to mask any on the water differences. As jeffers says its usually the loose nut etc ... if you point a 'fast' boat in the wrong direction you just gets there faster ! Blaze 720 |
Posted By: tickel
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 12:13am
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The winning boat in the Tasar Nationals, which was Australian and sailed by Lightweight Australians carried a fair amount of lead wrapped arround the casing to bring it up to a crew wieght of I think 150 kilos. It was probably a three year old boat and sailed with Dacron sails. The boat in second place had a normal sized crew,was probably 25 years old and had Mylars. I may be wrong but I think that this boat was disqualified from the first race for being a few kilos below the 68 kilo mark. Under these circumstances I think it was the sailors "wot dun it" not smod variations. ------------- tickel |
Posted By: BigFatStan
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 8:43am
| No wforgive me if I am wrong but it seems to me that rotomoulded boats probably come out at the same weight due to the process by which they are built - so there's your answer - go and buy Picos, you'll have nothing to complain about |
Posted By: jeffers
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 8:48am
I think you could be right there tickel..... A conversation at the recent Blaze inlands had a Blaze/Tasar sailor recounting something very similar...about his own boat.... Oh well at least he knows for next time... Paul ------------- Paul ---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
Posted By: foaminatthedeck
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 10:10am
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As i undersatnd it your right but is the weight evenly spread, from boat to boat? Old picos seemed lighter that the modern ones (they did break more easly) ------------- Lark 2170 |
Posted By: 49erGBR735HSC
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 10:24am
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Also another factor to consider is the tolerances of the Roto-mould boats. As they are not designed to be "out and out" racing boats, reckon the manufactures won't be basing their reputation on the finishes being as exact as their racing classes and it would be more economical to focus upon getting as many boats out of the factory than whether boat A and B are within a certain weight category (especially when they are going to relatively heavy anyway). ------------- Dennis Watson 49er GBR735 http://www.helensburghsailingclub.co.uk/ - Helensburgh S.C http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/home.php3?affid=560 - Boat Insurance from Noble Marine |
Posted By: English Dave
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 10:34am
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From a production point of view, I would think that you could put stricter weight tolerances on rotomoulded boats that are far more "production line" than GRP boats that are still effectively laid up by hand. The differences in the Rotomoulded boats would probably come mainly from any warping as they were released from the mould. Newer Picos may be heavier than the old but that may indicate a change in the design tolerances rather than inconsistancy accoss a batch. ------------- English Dave http://www.ballyholme.com - Ballyholme Yacht Club (You'd think I'd be better at it by now) Hurricane 5.9 SX RS700 |
Posted By: foaminatthedeck
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 11:17am
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I think the production was changed due to the early hulls cracking aroung high load areas. ------------- Lark 2170 |
Posted By: timnoyce
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 11:51am
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mmm, that is what I was thinking too. A rotomoulded boat should be able to be produced to very exact weights as it is determined by how much plastic powder/chips are put into the rotomoulding machine! The area which won't be exact will be the distribution of the plastic around the mould, so it would be possible to have thick or thin areas of the walls. Most of the boats have a dual layer constuction with a rigid plastic on the outside with high aesthetic properties and then inside they are filled with an expanding foam polymer which adds rigidity to the structure without massive weight. ------------- http://www.facebook.com/bearfootdesign - BEARFOOT DESIGN Cherub 2648 - Comfortably Numb |
Posted By: Deimos
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 12:26pm
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Re: Lasers from different regions. I've not heard about Lasers in Aus being faster, though am aware that the US supplied masts are softer than those from elsewhere. In general this is taken as meaning they do not last as long rather than affecting speed much. also, I guess being an entire continent having the same supply means that there is less likelihood of competing against others with a "better mast". Ian |
Posted By: allanorton
Date Posted: 08 Nov 06 at 3:23pm
| As I understand it, the difference between roto-moulded boats would be minimal. The moulds are CNC machined aluminium, not like conventional grp moulds which can be manipulted to vary rocker etc.. The whole process is accurately measured and automated, the same amount of plastic goes in the mould every time, & the mould gets spun about at the same speed, time, temperature etc.. |
Posted By: laser47
Date Posted: 09 Nov 06 at 10:59pm
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Re: Re: lasers from different regions my old Canadian hull was far sturdier and better made than my new british one. I've also heard stories about chisels and screwdrivers and stuff being found in PSE boats as well as them having thin patches in their gelcoat where it hasn't been laid up properly What I've seen so far of PSE boats doesn't do much to disprove this.The boat I sail with at the moment is right on the bottom boudaries of the class weight limits and also seems to have a curiously light nose. The weight difference between mine and several other similarly aged lasers in the boat park at my club is quite marked, so you can notice when you're sailing them and they're only about 100 sail numbers appart at most ------------- |