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    Posted: 27 Dec 05 at 10:18am

Bram,

You will find the correct data on the Musto here;

http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm

As for speed comparisons I don't think there have ever been enough MPS & SS together to make a resonable comparison; in the UK we have only once done a head to head with the 700 with enough boats to even out the issue of crew skill factor and the MPS came convincingly out on top but there are still some who say that this dosn't mean the MPS is faster .... results here.

http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2005/tide-ride.ht m

I don't think it really matters which is faster; both probably have their moments ...

Have you any photos of the SS in 20+ knots yet as I'd be interested to see how people cope with all that sail with limited beam ...?

Rick

E.g.

 

 

 



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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 05 at 4:51am

 

Yeah, I know I do.  We'll get some good shots in Florida in April.  It's really hard now because it is so cold and hard to get low where the spray is.  So here's Mike in the very first Swift every made (now upgraded with a carbon mast and the new sails).  It will have to do until we can get some action shots and some video

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Post Options Post Options   Quote TeamFugu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 Dec 05 at 2:03am
Bram
You need to update your photos and show them the new sails with the chop top main and the new kite. The boat looks a lot better with that rig too.

Oh for those of you who think that this is a boat that is only for the young. I am 45 220 - 230 lbs, depending on how much holiday cheer I've had, and my knees have been buggered up from an incident with a truck while riding my bike. I have yet to feel totaly out classed by the boat but I've only been out in 25+ once. All I can say is that I'm hooked and love mine.

You don't have to race to have fun. This could be the little wood sports car you pull out for a blast on Sundays and to impress your friends.
Live large, love life, and sail fast.
Swift Sol Home, http://swiftsolo.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 05 at 10:22pm

 

I  got a chance to read through all of the posts on this forum over the holiday.  It occurs to me that a couple of issues could use some “clarification” and I’ll try to address those in one post (the best I can).

 

Regarding weight:

The hull weight of the other three sail 14 foot skiff (the I-14) weighs 81.6 kg or about 9 lbs. more than the Swift.  It’s all up weight is likely closer to 20 lbs. heavier.  These boats are now as fast or faster than a well sailed 49er which is 2 ½ feet longer and 3 ½ wider.  My purpose for pointing this out is, in part, to question the certainty of the “wider is faster” crowd.

 

Regarding the alleged quote:

“Quote from their website: "The Swift is different from most other boats because of the effect of the fully battened main and the light hull weight."

Light hull weight?? 89kg doesn't sound very light to me. And come to think of it, a fully-battened main is hardly unique either.”

I have no idea where this alleged quote from “their website” came from.  Our website has no such information.  Any suggestion that there is something special about fully battened mains would be ridiculous.  Our site is www.swiftsolo.org  or  www.single-handedskiffs.com   (they are both the same site).  On the other hand, as pointed out above the boat is lighter than the lightening fast I-14 and the main and jib are fully battened.

Regarding the sheeting system:

The notion that playing the main is better than playing both sails when dealing with puffs is something that we reject wholesale for a number of reasons!  When hit with a puff while going to weather the apparent wind moves aft.  Dropping the main alone causes the “sail steering” to be in the opposite direction of the rudder movement which is to head up.  In addition, the slot chokes closed, back-winding the main and causing excessive drag.  It is my opinion that Strawberry’s idea is closer except that it is hard to dispose of enough healing moment with the jib alone without trashing the air in the slot. You can read what Julian Bethwaite said about this subject and the Swift by going to http://www.swiftsolo.org/pages/631108/index.htm   .  I should point out that Julian sailed the prototype Swift that had a hull that was 30 lbs heavier and had a cut down 49er mast and blades.  That boat was likely 42 lbs heavier (all up) than our current class rules and in some ways was easier to sail (it tacked really  easy in a blow but was very difficult to right after a capsize mostly because the mast was 10 lbs heavier).  When I told Julian that I was building a Swift that would be 30 lbs. lighter, he doubted that it would be as much fun to sail.  He was correct to some degree because the heavier Swift maintained speed better in the tacks and required a little less skill in the 20 knot plus wind range.  The gain in straight line boat speed has been less than I had anticipated.

 

Regarding equalization:

Equalization was part of the reason that the 49er class suffered serious damage in the US.  The system was finally dumped by the ISAF this year but not until after far too many sailors had been “equalized” out of the class.  The problems with the system would likely not have been very apparent if the class were not an Olympic class with a lot of full time sailors.  I can’t help but notice the wide weight range of world champion teams in the 505 class (not well correlated to the corresponding wind range of the regattas) and wonder if maybe they’ve had it right all along.  By keeping the boat tactical and allowing freedom with blades and mast bend they cater to all but the really light weight teams.

 

Strawberry, I agree with most of your observations throughout this forum (for what that’s worth) and we need to get you out in a Swift.  Get to Florida for our clinic and North American Championships in April and I will pay for your food and camping spot.  You’ll get a chance to sail both a Swift and a Musto to compare!  Bring your check book because we are going to hook you hopelessly.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Dec 05 at 6:07am

Originally posted by Doug.H

Hey guys!

 Although im slightly disheartened by the price estimates youve just sed.  will it really be twice the price of the musto skiff??  And even to build myself (which i wont cos im no boat builder) it still seems quite pricey.  Sorry for my niavety to all this but how come the price is so..........up there.  would there really be no way of getting it down?

And finally some questions - (trying to tread carefully with this question)  How does performance compare to the likes of the musto skiff??  It seems to have a fair sized sail area to it, so does it have the speed to match?
And how does ease of handling relate between the 2 boats? 

Doug 

Doug, Thanks

It's always hard to answer these questions without starting a pissing match--mostly from guys who've never seen or sailed either boat.  Please don't take anything I say to mean that the Musto people are anything but quality people who have led the way in single-handed skiff sailing. 

Yes, a new Swift complete with sails, cover, and launching dolly will cost you $23,000 US.  The construction method is significantly more expensive than typical skiff construction as are the construction materials.  In addition, there is much more hardware (partially because of the jib and partially because of more sophisticated rig control) and the sails are made from material that is three times as expensive as 49er sail cloth.

Years of racing (505's and 49ers) and observation has led me to believe that most dinghys remain competitive at the very top level for a year or so.  We do some rig tension tests that we think demonstrate why (at least in part).  The Swift contruction methods produce a hull that  will show less degradation in this test and in general deterioration on a scale that will reduce long term costs by a significant amount (you won't have to replace your boat or sails nearly as often to stay competitive at the top level as you do with most boats.)  Experience has shown us that reducing the weight any further will certainly lead to a less tactical and harder to sail skiff-- so the all up (ready to sail) weight of 195 lbs is not something that we seek to reduce.  Weight reduction in the mast, spin pole, and rudder are the exceptions.

let me preface my answer to your performance question by stating that the hard facts may not be as hard as they seem.

We have never lost a race to a Musto.  The Swift seems to point higher upwind and simply go lower and faster downwind.  It seems significantly easier to learn to sail and faster to tack and jibe. This does not mean that a world class Musto sailor would not be able to kick my 61 year old ass.  I believe that the US Musto dealer will agree that most of the advantage that the Swift has shown to date is the result of a faster learning curve on the Swift.  He did sail a Swift in our first championship and would have won  the regatta had he not capsized in a big gust on the last downwind leg of the last race.  Another way of putting it is that a Swift sailor can become competitive comparitively quickly.  In the end, the boat speed of the two boats may be more similar than the results indicate to date.

An interesting observation after racing some top skiff sailors in the US --Swift against Swift.  While the light guys can hold there own upwind in breezes up to 15 knots, the advantage seems to slightly favor the heavier guy downwind--even in 5 or 6 knots of breeze (the minimum trapping wind velocity). This is a bit strange in the skiff sailing world.

In the end, if up-front money is the primary concern, buy a Musto and get out there.  It is a great boat and the Musto people I have communicated with are also great.  If you are looking for something that is fast, easy to sail, and uses the highest quality products available, buy a Swift.  Either way, you will not go wrong because you'll begin perhaps the most healthy addiction you will ever experience.  Single-handed skiff sailors in both classes are the most helpful you'll find in all of sailing.

Bram           

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 Dec 05 at 11:43pm
Hey guys!

1st off - Thanks for ur comments strawberry, much appreciated!  you certainly filled me with some more confidence there!

and 2nd - helloooooo Bram!  Good to have you here and feeding us some info!  Although im slightly disheartened by the price estimates youve just sed.  will it really be twice the price of the musto skiff??  And even to build myself (which i wont cos im no boat builder) it still seems quite pricey.  Sorry for my niavety to all this but how come the price is so..........up there.  would there really be no way of getting it down?

And finally some questions - (trying to tread carefully with this question)  How does performance compare to the likes of the musto skiff??  It seems to have a fair sized sail area to it, so does it have the speed to match?
And how does ease of handling relate between the 2 boats? 

Doug 
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Post Options Post Options   Quote TeamFugu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 05 at 9:07pm
I have built a Swift Solo and I find some of the comments interesting. I used to sail a 505 years ago and I don't find the Swift to be all that dificult to sail. The top of the mast is very bendy and the rig is easy to depower when it blows.

I built my Swift for two main reasons.
1. I love to build boats. I also love the cedar strip method.
2. I've always wanted a skiff since I saw an 18.

Not having crew has been a problem and finding a good driver is one of the reasons I sold my 505 years ago. Racing for me is a secondary reason for the boat. I find singl handing the Swift with the sheeting system is much easier than single handing the 505. I think I even feel more stable than I did single handing the 505.

Though I have not sailed in a lot of heavy air, the times that I did, I found the boat to be very responsive and easy to get out of a jam. I was able to chase down a Hobie 16 at any point of sail without having to resort to the kite. With the kite up, the boat is even faster.

I have yet to go down hard. My biggest problem racing is that I go out on the wire too early after tossing the kite and "teabag". The boat is very easy to get back up and the one time I capsized with two sails, I was able to right the boat almost as fast as I did my laser, the mast barely touched the water.

Ture the boat may not be for everyone but it has been great for me.

Oh one last thing. Forget about marine ply wood, you can't use it. Foam is also out. Class rules are for cedar wood core, carbon/kevlar inside, and S glass outside. Constructing the hull is rather easy. It is the rig that is the most complicated and since there is room for you to play a bit, you can flex you brain a bit.
Live large, love life, and sail fast.
Swift Sol Home, http://swiftsolo.com
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 05 at 1:42pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Guest#260

Sorry Jim I don't understand the point you are trying to make ...

The cliche about develeopment boats being expensive to run is one of the most repeated of all instances of development boat bashing. All the ****** time.

I have no problem with people wanting to sail SMODs because they don't want the hassle of thinking about sail design, rig design and all the rest and just want to go sailing, but the propaganda about development boats being expensive gets to me. It just ain't true like for like.

I didn't say that ...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 05 at 12:43pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Sorry Jim I don't understand the point you are trying to make ...

The cliche about develeopment boats being expensive to run is one of the most repeated of all instances of development boat bashing. All the ****** time.

I have no problem with people wanting to sail SMODs because they don't want the hassle of thinking about sail design, rig design and all the rest and just want to go sailing, but the propaganda about development boats being expensive gets to me. It just ain't true like for like.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Dec 05 at 11:34am

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Guest#260

That may be the case but all this constant SMOD bashing on this forum is getting a bit dull. I don't think you ever see sweeping statments like the one below about dev classes ...


How about the ones in the Class development topic about 14s being far more expensive to run than 4 tonners? Its got the same number of sails, need have no more strings, what on earth makes it more expensive to run?

Sorry Jim I don't understand the point you are trying to make ...

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