Has anyone seen a Swift Solo in the flesh? It looks like an "interesting" desgin.

I can only imagine what it's like to sail. Any idea on the performance comparison to a Musto Skiff?

Apparently 3 have been built in the UK, by Will Gratton, Stuart Williams, and Doug Kirchmann. Are any of these guys on the forum? Some info would be great.

One of these http://www.single-handedskiffs.com - http://www.single-handedskiffs.com

I've seen all the comparisons on the Musto and 700 etc. but the whole site seems to be pretty bias, just lookin for a more rounded view.

I have not seen one in the flesh but looking at the spec it seems to me you'd have a bit on in anything over 15knots; there are no shots of it in any breeze on their site; it would be good to see some ...

It is a very different concept to the MPS; home build, complexed (i.e. highly adjustable) rig, no wings, very large kite (1.5sqm bigger than an RS800 kite).

Probably great so sail in venues which don't often get much wind.

Bram, the guy behind it did post about the boat on this forum a few months ago.

Rick

PS That data on their site about the 700 & MPS is incorrect ...

PPS MPS sailors are also not all blokes ...

Rick,

What is the data that is incorrect about the MPS & RS on the Swift Solo site?

A guy I know is getting a MPS at our club so it should be really interesting to see how we go against each other. I just have to finish my Swift first!

Steve  

I think the wood looks seriously sexy, and no doubt it's going to be rapid. I would definately consider building one, dependant on costs.

I've been looking at the parts list for the hull and it looks like the expensive bits are going to be:

360 / 16 foot ¼” by ¾” bead and cove Western Red cedar strips
4 / 4x8 foot sheets ½” particle board
1 / 4x8 foot sheet 5/8” ACX plywood for strongbacks
20 yards 50” wide 6oz. S-glass 8 harness satin weave
24 yards 50” wide 5.5 oz. carbon/Kevlar hybrid twill
2 / 50 yard rolls 2” e glass tape
2 / 50 yard rolls 1” e glass tape
1 / 50 yard roll 2” uni- directional carbon tape (for hull, deck and rudder stock)

Does anyone know any suppliers where I can get these parts at reasonable costs?

The foils are made from old 49er foils. And because the rig is free to development, i should be able to knock something together, so I could even make multiple rigs to depend on wind strength.

Just seen this picture on the swift site:

That's definately something to consider. At 89kg it's not exactly light.

Jim, your a bit of a wooden boat expert I believe, where do you buy marine wood from?

This is the page I am refering to;

http://www.single-handedskiffs.com/pages/453351/index.htm - http://www.single-handedskiffs.com/pages/453351/index.htm

The correct MPS figuers are here;

http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm

Quite why they would quote the main smaller, the kite smaller and the boat heavier that it actually is when the correct figures are easy to find is anyones guess ,,,  also there is no aliminium in the spars and the wing width is not variable.

I think some fo the figures for the 7 are also incorrect and again they have a carbon mast.

regards,

Rick

Thanks Rick,

Next time I'm talking to Bram I'll point out the differences that are there. When he is talking about aluminium in the spars it may refer to the booms.......Does the MPS have an aluminium boom?

We certainly have a carbon mast and boom on the 700.

Ian

No - it's carbon

Careful ... that is Richard Stenhouses wife ... (he sailed Finn at Atlanta ....)

Near Saltford in bristol, they sell mahooooosive sheets of marine ply for £19, so big even cut in half it doesn't go in the car, but in quarters its fine....i don't know the exact place but its where we got it for whaam which seems fine, and i still have enough to re-deck a firefly!

if you want any info, Pm me strawberry

You don't need to bother with marine timber suppliers. You can can get the particleboard for the forms and the plywood for the strongback from your local hardware. I got my western red cedar from a wooden window blinds manufacturer. I got them to mill the strips for me. That is the only "timber" you need.

Cheers,

Steve   

It looks like the Swift Solo is goin to be too expensive for me. Looking at the Robbins website, just the cedar strips were going to cost thousands! Never mind the mega expensive hybrid fabrics.

I've still got this really niggling idea that I want to build a boat. Problem being, I'm skint!

I've had a read of the "How to build a wooden Cherub" article, by Jim C on the Cherub website. Maybe thats an idea. Jim, do you think your estimate of costs between £300 and £600 is still about right? Or have prices either risen or fallen?

Quote from their website: "The Swift is different from most other boats because of the effect of the fully battened main and the light hull weight."

Light hull weight?? 89kg doesn't sound very light to me. And come to think of it, a fully-battened main is hardly unique either.

It's a brave attempt by the seppos to design an exciting boat for a change, but IMHO it looks like a bit of a pig compared to most of the competition (700, MPS, IC, Voodoo, etc).

The hull doesn't weigh 89kg. That is the weight when it is fully rigged. It weighs 9kg more than the Musto so yes it is heavier but not by a massive amount - just over 10% and it is also carrying an additional sail. 

I have a PDF file of it but can't find a way to post it. If you are interested send me a PM with your email and I will send it to you.

I agree that you lose some of this ability - you can adjust the relativity on the water. However I think that this will be more than compensated by the ability to do a bear off will full control of both sails. I stress that I haven't sailed one as yet so I can't comment from experience. I should get another Swifty on here that has!!

I have always found that sheeting the main and jib in at the same time IS fast. I believe this to be due to the small "pump" effect gained from sheeting in. It is faster to have both "pumps" at the same time, aswell as the jib forming a slot for the pump, yadda yadda. Especially effective in roll tacks when you can gfet nice big "pumps".

In a 2 person boat I'd never constantly trim the jib except when you get seriously over powered.

It's the jib that you stear to and so if it's constantly being eased you'll lose height.

Tacking is of course a different matter.

Rick

I also find it fast to spill wind from the jib rather than the main. But can still point as I have an appreciation of what the wind is doing, what my main is doing, and how my boat behaves. Can be fast to pinch slightly when ypur over-powered anyway.

Sorry, we digress.

the only time it's even slightly fast to pinch is when the boats not pinching aren't pointing anywhere near u....as soon as you and the non-pinchin boats are pointing near the same...u will lose out masses!!!

my helm and I found that out @ our winter champs.....we are at the lighter end of the weight range in the kestrel....and it was gustin f5+....so we were pinchin to keep the boat flat...so losing speed but we were outpointing the other boats masses b4 we pinched...so we were still as fast as the heavy-weight boys in the fleet as even tho they had the power, and thus not pinching...we were still as fast bcos we were travelling less on the water! ....unless we just hav a much faster boat all round!

You don't seem to have read my post.

Im all in favour of footing off and bringing on the speed, but being 64kg and sailing a 600 i dont really have the leverage to power up.   - (linking back to the swift solo)  Being 64kg myself and having a 12m main its fair to say that its a bit of a handful in force 4+ but still managable. 
I have been looking to upgrade, i.e mussy skiff / 700 / (or now the) solo swift
(please dont misunderstand me when i say upgrade, im not saying a 600 is not as good, i just mean i wanna go a bit faster)
But from looking at the sail area to leverage ratio im going to have to rule the solo swift out as a possibility for me.  With 2.14m more upwind main area and less boat width for leverage i just dont see how lil me is going to be able to handle it.  Of course i understand that rigs can be tuned and altered to depower them but considering how powered up boats like the mussy and 700 already are (and with less sail area than the swift) it seems as if the swift would be extremely limited in the wind limits it could be sailed in. 

Although saying that, i would love to get some honest opinions from some ppl who have sailed them to see if i could throw it back in the list of possibilities. 

Doug

Anyone got photos of the UK Swift Solos in build or complete and sailing stages?

Can we book test sails?

Doug, you can't compare a development rig, as on the Swift, to one of those smelly smod rigs.

It's possible to depower a rig SO much. For instance, make the rig very low profile, keep the C of E low. Use a nice bendy carbon mast. RS masts are absolute tree trunks! Do they still fit laminate peieces of metal into the mast to make sure they have absolutely no gust response? And as for the Musto Skiff, one word, Proctor, yuck!

With a development rig you can keep loads of control over bend charecteristics by installing lowers, D2's, and caps, as and when you wish. Installing adjustable caps is, in my opinion, probably the most effective way of controlling the power.

Are you allowed to bung some of that area from the main onto the jib? Another great way of reducing healing moment.

In conclusion, SMOD rigs, because they all have to be the same, are designed for one particular demographic. However with a development rig you can setup so it works for YOU! I can't see a problem with a 10stone fella handling 14sqm of sail

Or you can have a simple equalisation system based on your weight and leverage as per the 700 so that the rig can be optimised for a range of sailors.  This gives all the advantages of off the shelf racing without compromising performance.

Ian

RS700 GBR912

Strawberry old boy your are making your self look a bit daft with these sweeping statements.

The Musto rig is made by Selden (the Proctor brand has long since passed) and I find it very tuneable; as is the rig of many other SMOD's.

You can still adjust rig tension, rake, spreaders, lowers, heel position etc ...

Just because we cant change the section it dosn't mean it not tunable.

Rick

I am expressing an opinion, the point of an open foum. To have a counter opinion is one thing, but to personally attack someone's opinion.....more fool you.

What a pety criticism! It is still the same company! The quality doesn't change just because you put a different sticker on the front of the mast!

My argument, possibly expressed poorly, was that a development rig will be far more "personisable" than any SMOD rig could! Also, as far I know, the Skiff and 700 rigs can't be adjusted on the water can they?

Therefore for example, if you were to say power on plenty of cap tension to depower the rig upwind, this would an absolute dog when your searching for power downwind.

The fact everyone hates them is the very reason some people love them......

That may be the case but all this constant SMOD bashing on this forum is getting a bit dull. I don't think you ever see sweeping statments like the one below about dev classes ...

I absolutely agree that skill always counts as the biggest single factor in sailing but the impact of weight is not tiny.  If you are outside the weight range of a particular class, you are banging your head against a brick wall which for the vast majority of us, skill alone won't break down (unless of course you are an Olympic superbeing). 

I used to sail Lasers and became very disillusioned knowing that the conditions would severely impact the results of the racing

• watching lighter people of similar skill to myself, pop onto the plane earlier and disappear in certain conditions whilst I was stuck firmly in displacement mode.  
• knowing that I would simply monster the same people upwind in a blow

The 700 equalisation simply widens the competitive weight range of the boat and makes the playing field so much flatter, to the benefit of the racing.  I have seen none of the weight based performance differences of the non equalised classes I've sailed and in my opinion, having experienced it, it does work very well.

In my head, certainly, but that doesn't make it less true.

Ian

My name is Bram and I'm the designer of the Swift.  I was just today made aware of this forum on Swifts--sorry for coming in so late. 

Let me start by pointing out that the data on the Musto came to me from article about the single handed trials in France some time ago. The data on the chart was taken directly from that chart originally (not the Rs 700). I apologize if it is wrong and will get it corrected tonite.  To date, this is the first I have heard of it.

It seems that much misinformation is spread on these forums about the Swift.  The boat weighs 170 lbs  including the pole, the rudder cassette, the sock, and all running rigging or 195 lbs ready to race including blades.

We currently have very close to 30 in the water and the class was officially formed in March of this year.  74 Swifts are currently being built in 14 countries although I need to point out that a few of those licenses have been paid  for a long time and have not started construction to my knowlege (the website says 13 but we just added South Africa this week).

We have raced the Musto between 12 and 14 times in Seattle and the US Musto dealer is a friend of mine.  In fact, we have invited the N/A Musto class to join our clinic and North American Championships in Florida (they will have seperate starts).  They have accepted and we expect three to five Mustos and 15 Swifts.

The jib sheeting system on the Swift is the result of a year of non stop development before the boat design was started and can not be adapted to other boats because the boat / rig has to be designed around the system-not the other way around.  Many of the top skiff sailors in the US have sailed the Swift (a couple of medal winners) and commented on this system.  You can find their comments on the system (including Julians) on my website  http://www.swiftsolo.org - www.swiftsolo.org .  

I'm a bit surprised whenever I hear the comment that something was tried before by someone else and it doesn't work.  If that were indeed the test,  the Wright Brothers could have better used the time they wasted on the Wright Flyer because "it had been tried before and it didn't work".  Almost nothing I've developed for skiffs worked 100% the first time. 

I think it's best to let the growth that we are experiencing in Seattle do the taliking regarding performance (the only place where Swifts and Mustos are currently raced together).  In the end, a completed Swift will cost you twice what a Musto costs or you can build one yourself for about US $9000.  Each individual has to evaluate the cost difference and make his own vaule decisions.

I hope this helps,

Bram     

Sorry Jim I don't understand the point you are trying to make ...

I didn't say that ...

Doug, Thanks

It's always hard to answer these questions without starting a pissing match--mostly from guys who've never seen or sailed either boat.  Please don't take anything I say to mean that the Musto people are anything but quality people who have led the way in single-handed skiff sailing. 

Yes, a new Swift complete with sails, cover, and launching dolly will cost you $23,000 US.  The construction method is significantly more expensive than typical skiff construction as are the construction materials.  In addition, there is much more hardware (partially because of the jib and partially because of more sophisticated rig control) and the sails are made from material that is three times as expensive as 49er sail cloth.

Years of racing (505's and 49ers) and observation has led me to believe that most dinghys remain competitive at the very top level for a year or so.  We do some rig tension tests that we think demonstrate why (at least in part).  The Swift contruction methods produce a hull that  will show less degradation in this test and in general deterioration on a scale that will reduce long term costs by a significant amount (you won't have to replace your boat or sails nearly as often to stay competitive at the top level as you do with most boats.)  Experience has shown us that reducing the weight any further will certainly lead to a less tactical and harder to sail skiff-- so the all up (ready to sail) weight of 195 lbs is not something that we seek to reduce.  Weight reduction in the mast, spin pole, and rudder are the exceptions.

let me preface my answer to your performance question by stating that the hard facts may not be as hard as they seem.

We have never lost a race to a Musto.  The Swift seems to point higher upwind and simply go lower and faster downwind.  It seems significantly easier to learn to sail and faster to tack and jibe. This does not mean that a world class Musto sailor would not be able to kick my 61 year old ass.  I believe that the US Musto dealer will agree that most of the advantage that the Swift has shown to date is the result of a faster learning curve on the Swift.  He did sail a Swift in our first championship and would have won  the regatta had he not capsized in a big gust on the last downwind leg of the last race.  Another way of putting it is that a Swift sailor can become competitive comparitively quickly.  In the end, the boat speed of the two boats may be more similar than the results indicate to date.

An interesting observation after racing some top skiff sailors in the US --Swift against Swift.  While the light guys can hold there own upwind in breezes up to 15 knots, the advantage seems to slightly favor the heavier guy downwind--even in 5 or 6 knots of breeze (the minimum trapping wind velocity). This is a bit strange in the skiff sailing world.

In the end, if up-front money is the primary concern, buy a Musto and get out there.  It is a great boat and the Musto people I have communicated with are also great.  If you are looking for something that is fast, easy to sail, and uses the highest quality products available, buy a Swift.  Either way, you will not go wrong because you'll begin perhaps the most healthy addiction you will ever experience.  Single-handed skiff sailors in both classes are the most helpful you'll find in all of sailing.

Bram          

I  got a chance to read through all of the posts on this forum over the holiday.  It occurs to me that a couple of issues could use some “clarification” and I’ll try to address those in one post (the best I can).

Regarding weight:

The hull weight of the other three sail 14 foot skiff (the I-14) weighs 81.6 kg or about 9 lbs. more than the Swift.  It’s all up weight is likely closer to 20 lbs. heavier.  These boats are now as fast or faster than a well sailed 49er which is 2 ½ feet longer and 3 ½ wider.  My purpose for pointing this out is, in part, to question the certainty of the “wider is faster” crowd.

Regarding the alleged quote:

“Quote from their website: "The Swift is different from most other boats because of the effect of the fully battened main and the light hull weight."

Light hull weight?? 89kg doesn't sound very light to me. And come to think of it, a fully-battened main is hardly unique either.”

I have no idea where this alleged quote from “their website” came from.  Our website has no such information.  Any suggestion that there is something special about fully battened mains would be ridiculous.  Our site is http://www.swiftsolo.org/ - www.swiftsolo.org  or   http://www.single-handedskiffs.com/ - www.single-handedskiffs.com   (they are both the same site).  On the other hand, as pointed out above the boat is lighter than the lightening fast I-14 and the main and jib are fully battened.

Regarding the sheeting system:

The notion that playing the main is better than playing both sails when dealing with puffs is something that we reject wholesale for a number of reasons!  When hit with a puff while going to weather the apparent wind moves aft.  Dropping the main alone causes the “sail steering” to be in the opposite direction of the rudder movement which is to head up.  In addition, the slot chokes closed, back-winding the main and causing excessive drag.  It is my opinion that Strawberry’s idea is closer except that it is hard to dispose of enough healing moment with the jib alone without trashing the air in the slot. You can read what Julian Bethwaite said about this subject and the Swift by going to http://www.swiftsolo.org/pages/631108/index.htm - http://www.swiftsolo.org/pages/631108/index.htm    .  I should point out that Julian sailed the prototype Swift that had a hull that was 30 lbs heavier and had a cut down 49er mast and blades.  That boat was likely 42 lbs heavier (all up) than our current class rules and in some ways was easier to sail (it tacked really  easy in a blow but was very difficult to right after a capsize mostly because the mast was 10 lbs heavier).  When I told Julian that I was building a Swift that would be 30 lbs. lighter, he doubted that it would be as much fun to sail.  He was correct to some degree because the heavier Swift maintained speed better in the tacks and required a little less skill in the 20 knot plus wind range.  The gain in straight line boat speed has been less than I had anticipated.

Regarding equalization:

Equalization was part of the reason that the 49er class suffered serious damage in the US.  The system was finally dumped by the ISAF this year but not until after far too many sailors had been “equalized” out of the class.  The problems with the system would likely not have been very apparent if the class were not an Olympic class with a lot of full time sailors.  I can’t help but notice the wide weight range of world champion teams in the 505 class (not well correlated to the corresponding wind range of the regattas) and wonder if maybe they’ve had it right all along.  By keeping the boat tactical and allowing freedom with blades and mast bend they cater to all but the really light weight teams.

Strawberry, I agree with most of your observations throughout this forum (for what that’s worth) and we need to get you out in a Swift.  Get to Florida for our clinic and North American Championships in April and I will pay for your food and camping spot.  You’ll get a chance to sail both a Swift and a Musto to compare!  Bring your check book because we are going to hook you hopelessly.

Yeah, I know I do.  We'll get some good shots in Florida in April.  It's really hard now because it is so cold and hard to get low where the spray is.  So here's Mike in the very first Swift every made (now upgraded with a carbon mast and the new sails).  It will have to do until we can get some action shots and some video

Bram 

Bram,

You will find the correct data on the Musto here;

http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/facts-and-figures.htm

As for speed comparisons I don't think there have ever been enough MPS & SS together to make a resonable comparison; in the UK we have only once done a head to head with the 700 with enough boats to even out the issue of crew skill factor and the MPS came convincingly out on top but there are still some who say that this dosn't mean the MPS is faster .... results here.

http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2005/tide-ride.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/reports-and-news/2005/tide-ride.ht m

I don't think it really matters which is faster; both probably have their moments ...

Have you any photos of the SS in 20+ knots yet as I'd be interested to see how people cope with all that sail with limited beam ...?

Rick

E.g.

Rick,

Yes, I've posted a notice under the chart that the info was incorrect.  Now that the holiday is over, I will build a new chart and post it.

I agree that the question of speed is always difficult because of different skill levels and different wind velocity.  When you combine that with the fact that the slower boat sailors will always want to make excuses--you have nothing left to do but to put up some money and have a go.  Even then, there will always be someone who will find a way to make their own reality out of what actually happened.  All in all, I thought the regatta you guys had against the 700 was pretty convincing in favor of the Musto.

A couple of observations that may help provide some perspective--still subjective, however:  It is my sense that Ron (the N/A Musto dealer) can give me a much better go in the Swift than he can in the Musto--even though he has three years in the Musto and only a few days in the Swift.  There is some convincing evidence of this as well. 

Under "News" on the Swift website home page  http://www.swiftsolo.org - www.swiftsolo.org   there is an article from a 49er sailor who sailed the Swift for the first couple of times this fall.  While I often beat him with my Swift when he's racing his 49er, he gave me a real go when he sailed the Swift (please don't read this as a claim that a Swift is faster than a well sailed 49er--it is not).  When top end skiff sailors race Swifts against me, the results are not much different. Do remember that I likely have 10 hours in a Swift for every hour that the second most active Swift sailor has (most of the Swifts have been launched in the last 8 months and I know that an ass kicking is just around the corner--but I'll enjoy it while I can).

Regarding wind range: the continued concern that the Swift will be a handful in a blow are simply backwards until the wind gets above 25 knots (it may be the easiest high performance skiff to sail in 15 to 20 knots--either single or double handed).  In the last regatta in Seattle where the Musto, 29ers, and the Swifts were racing together everybody did fine in the first day at 15 knots of breeze.  The second day the wind piped up to 22 to 25 knots with big waves.  After a very long sail to the starting line, the Swift was the only boat that had not capsized and was ready to race.   

Also regarding wind range: below and above are pictures in 20 plus knots and in 3 knots.  Admitedly, we have few pictures above 20 knots (really cold salt water and small photo boats are a problem in Seattle so most photographers prefer the flat warm fresh water of The Gorge when the wind is up--the black and white picture above).

One of the things that Ron stresses is that the Swift/Musto thing does not have to be a zero sum game.  I agree with him and believe that single handed skiff sailing is the future and that both classes can and will grow side by side.  The problem with small boat sailing has little to do with the "too many classes" argument.

Bram

I agree; the classes are each very different in character and each will attract it's own following.

Rick

Having width does make it easier to carry sail in a breeze ... thats why 18's have wings, Fireballs trapezes and AC's have sliding seats.

To be able to use your sail area you have to be able to balance it with weight; that is why it is useful to be able to get your weight away from the centre line. That is why width is useful ...

Rick

It looks like it could be a very interesting year....... Are there any plans to run production of the Solo Swift through a boat-builder in the UK?

Rick, I assumed that we are talking to well educated skiff sailors on this forum.  I agree with you completely as long as we are sailing only in 25 knots with no gusts and no shifts and all other things are equal.

My point is that a I-14 that carries a similar amount of sail area to a 49er will now beat a well sailed 49er upwind in a blow--even though it is 3 1/2 feet narrower and 2 1/2 feet shorter.  It accomplishes this seemingly unlikely feat by reducing hull drag.  The Swift capitalizes on a similar violation of conventional wisdom by reducing sail drag through extraordinary sail control--both shape and trim.

I believe that future advances in skiff design may nearly all come from thinking outside the box.  If it were as simple as more sail area, less weight, and more width, I'd be launching my Nomex /carbon single hander with 20 foot wings and 800 feet of sail soon. I believe that advances in sailing technology will come through integration—not simplification (autos are much more complex now than in the 30’s but much faster and easier to drive because of integration of sophisticated systems). 

Regarding righting moment:

I believe that it is a two edged sword.  When a 6' sailor bends his knees all the way he becomes a 4' sailor but only moves his trapping center of mass inboard about 16".  If it takes 10 knots of breeze to hold a skipper flat out on the trap, a 7 knot lull will require that he move his center of mass 3 1/2 feet inboard—more than twice the distance that bending knees will deal with.  In addition, he needs to move this large distance while bearing off and sheeting in to deal with the apparent wind moving forward .  This assumes that his center of mass is 7 feet off the centerline (4' racks and 3' from your feet to your center of mass) (heeling moment=square of velocity rule or 10x10=100 and 7x7 =49).  This is a magic trick that few can perform (moving your mass a long distances inboard while moving the sheet and tiller outboard).  When I was testing the Swift rig in the 49er, I found that the boat became much easier to sail as I moved the racks inboard--even when the wind was generally overpowering.  There is, of course, a limit to this theory--likely between 5'6" and 6'4" for single handed skiffs with 6'4" favoring skiffs with enough sail are to allow flat out trapping in lighter winds.

In the end, most of our past theories about skiff design are being blown out (Paul Beiker and Julian should be given 40 lashes each for this trend). Actually, it’s an exciting time to be a skiff sailor and innovator.

Bram

"Are there any plans to run production of the Solo Swift through a boat-builder in the UK?"

Actually, we have a builder that is close to being certified just across the way in Belgium.  I'm sure that they will complete the certification process soon and be able to take your orders.  By the looks of the work they've done, they should be very good.

Bram 

I don't think that happens when the UK 49er fleet comes up against the I14 fleet ... I also think there are many more variables when you compare the 2 boats such as T foil rudders ...

Anyway ... all the best with your project. Hope to race against one some time.

Rick

Hi Bram,

If you are going to update your site, you could also correct the error in 700 section as we also have a full set of carbon spars.

Thanks

Ian

They also look pretty good as well!!

Hi Bram,

If you are going to update your site, you could also correct the error in 700 section as we also have a full set of carbon spars.

Thanks

Ian

Ian,  I will make the correction.  I'm not sure how I got this info and I apologize. 

Should be able to get it done tonight.  If not, it'll get done tomorrow night.

Bram

Thats interesting intelegence Rick,  Im sure the I-14 fleet in Seattle will be relieved to know the UK I-14's are off the pace by so much.

Bram is making the point that regardless of foils or what ever other technology a narrow 14foot boat has achieved a superiority over a wider longer boat. Lets not depreciate that effort, its a huge improvement. That this doesnt occur in your patch may mean exactly nothing. Julian debued a smaller narrower 18footer which, as the experts said, couldnt have been faster, but his systems integration got him the world title that year and later. Guess we can now be assuming that Paul and the Seattle I-14 innovators are looking down that barrel too.  I for one sure hope so and cant wait to get done with my share of lasers and C420/FJ's and get more time in bigger and faster skiffs. Anyone for a narrow entry T-foiled 14 hull,  looking for a crew?

But looking back through the posts here and elsewhere its evident that there is a common thread to the posts from some people, who post a lot/and are experts in their minds, that certain things cant be done, while Bram, at least, seems to have done them.  There is such a lot of certain knowledge that 10 lbs makes such a difference, and resistance to the idea that a higher sail area to righting moment can be made to work, despite the knowledge (unless you want to call Bram a flat out liar) that the swift can be sailed well above the medium windrange for skiffs, even by an old fart. I dont think he means a novice though.

Rick you  sound incredulous about this in particular and are still calling for the photographic proof (although in a less obnoxious way now, after someone I saw called you on it a few months ago) and still posting that one photo of a deep stern wave lifting a musto 1/2 out of the water, a lonely  white horse in the whole frame.  Im sure its bloody hard to take a picture of yourself in that wind condition, maybe Bram should wait for a passing ferry to leap out of the water to satisfy you with such a snap, for what would that prove but exactly nothing if moments later the crew is teabagged and the boat comes to a catastrophic slap fest with the next trough. 

Perhaps your so incredulous because your know the Musto is such a handfull in heavier weather, then its just a pitty that the class rules dont allow the boats power systems to be adjusted, lowering the center of effort by splitting the sail plan (balancing the helm up and down) and changing the tip response and mainsail camber on the water,in real time, during racing, from the trap to accomodate the increased load as strawbery and bram clearly point out.

Sure puts my laser and my skippers little bethwaite production boat in the antique bin and that is one that could be made easy in blow.

Moreover, we keep hearing the hoary old lines like easing the jib isnt important, when skiff crews at the top have found that it is, and from one riteous expert that having a jib is no use at all. That they all tried sync'ed sails and failed, so it cant important/be done. One of our trans-atlantic buddies thinks having a assy is no use at all because of the proximity of concrete walls, whatever that means. I have heard about no breakthroughs from the new cat/canoe, a long time in gestation, and now in the water and assy boats are proving their metel, canoes and all + concrete walls.  My canoe buddy thinks that following experts that keep failing is not a logical idea. Perhaps he is right and I am glad there are some real smart people like Bram and Julian who just do it and make it work.

Getting the class development right is trick business no doubt, looks like the 14 have done it and the Swift Class too. Lets hope.

Good luck with your project Bram (which one is that?) and with the International Swift Solo Class too.

Just a as a last thought, I checked to see if these experts just keep knocking the swift when ever a thread about the class pops up, actually they habve an opinion on just about everything. Mostly all negative and delivering their superior knowledge and vast experience.

Spurt = drip under pressure, X is an unknown multiplier.

emough said, back to my brew and merry whatever to all.

Probably the most insulting ill thought out and rude post I have read on this forum. 

So far this forum has managed to avoid this type of reply (other than the jesting ones in banter).  

Have a look at the MPS site if you want more pictures.  If you really have read all the other posts then you will see that the outcome when comparing boats is invariably for the owners/class associations to say 'try them for yourself then make up your own mind'. There has been some very interesting comments on this thread, with each giving their own opinions. However because you don't like/agree/understand them you resort to insults.  Just because someone does not like or agree with a comment it does not mean that they are knocking it.

It is a shame that your first post is in this tone, and that you think so little of your friends debating skills that you have to jump in with insults.

Quite ...

Trapper; I am not "calling for photographic proof" I am just interested to see pictures of boats blasting along in big breeze; in fact the pic's thread is the most prolific one on this forum indicating that I am not the only one.

As for pics of the MPS in big breeze there are loads on the MPS site; take a look.

http://www.mustoskiff.com/picture-gallery.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/picture-gallery.htm

Garda 2004 has loads of "monster" shots ...

I wish Bram success with his project and look forward to having a go in a SS at some point ...

regards,

Rick

The last thing we need on this forum is for it to degenerate into a pissing contest. As can be seen from from my user name it is obvious that I am a supporter of the Swift Solo. That does not mean that by definition I despise the MPS or any other dinghy for that matter. By all means lets have differing points of view but the moment the discussion starts to get to the level of abuse any intelligent discussion becomes impossible. 

In regard to some of the points made here - this is my take.

The latest I14s are rocketships - faster than the 49ers where I sail although we don't have a regular top class 49er sailor participating. Thanks to the T foil rudder they are also safer.

The Swift Solo won't be as fast as the new canoes. I sailed against the Australian canoe recently at Lake Cootharaba. It was FAST!! I am building a Swift Solo in my garage now and Bram has opted for a reasonable amount of stability in the hull shape. Sure he could have made it faster - you slice 6 inches of waterline width of the boat. The point is that this is a fast singlehanded skiff that most people with some effort can master. It actually stands upright by itself in the water! In my opinion that provides a really good basis for strong growth in the future as the basic hull is fast without being unsailable for 99% of all sailors and the rig can evolve with the rapid changes that are happening and also be tuned to different sizes and venues.

Singlehanded skiff sailing is a relatively new and exiting addition to our sport. I think the more classes there are the better. I think the MPS looks like a great boat but there are none in Oz and on balance I preferred the idea of builing something myself with more control over the finished product. Like Rick I relish the idea of sailing against the opposition when my Swift is finished. 

Not true - Jason Beebe (top 14 sailor) has one ... give him a shout ...

http://www.mustoskiff.com/dealer-details/aus-and-nz.htm - http://www.mustoskiff.com/dealer-details/aus-and-nz.htm

regards,

Rick

Guy, guys,

Geez, you go to bed and wake up to this!  I agree that this thread has remained civilized until now and would like to keep it that way.  Rick, I appreciate the fact that you've remained above the bashing and look forward to meeting and racing with you.

Chris 249, well, your unbroken chain of misquoting nearly everybody and everything remains intact.  I'm reasonably certain that you've used the same level of accuracy in quoting Anders as you did in quoting me (leaving out a few keys words here and there to completely invert the meaning).  I have raced a number of IC's over time and have found them to be faster to weather "in more than 10 or 12 knots"--a part of the quote that you insist on leaving out.  Just to make this clear to you, that is slightly different than quoting me and saying  "I have raced a number of IC's over time and have found them to be faster".  Your claim that there is some kind of "confrontation" between myself and Paul is simply wrong.  I am fortunate enough to live and sail in Seattle where most of the top US 49er and I-14 sailors also live (including Paul).  It has been, in fact, largely Paul’s work that has taken the I-14 from pretty good boat four years ago to the rocket it is today--without adding beam.  That is not to say that Paul doesn't believe that a little more beam would be faster in the I-14 because I believe he does.  Incidentally, I think I can speak for both Paul and Chris Henderson (49er US sailing team member for a number of years) that indeed the last generation of 14's are as fast or faster than well sailed 49er's to weather. 

As for suggesting that Julian believes that the single handed skiff battle will ultimately be won by a skiff with a wide beam, you're just going to have to show me where he said that or some evidence that he believes it.  Let me clarify--I do believe that wide beams are faster in straight line speed in steady conditions and heavy air.  I also believe that practical beam width shrinks exponentially as the amount on manpower and movable ballast in the boat is reduced.  As I pointed out previously, it is my personal opinion that 6' 4" is the optimum max in single-handers.

As for thinking that other single-handed skiff designers may be "barking up the wrong tree" with cat rigged boats--still guilty as charged.  I have no idea why I would have ever designed a new skiff if I had thought otherwise.  That is why more than one boat design exists. It is what makes a horse race. 

As pointed out in other forums Chris, you have no trouble with the Musto claim of being "The only true single handed skiff available" but have trouble with "ultimate" even though the definition has been quoted to you several times.  Incidentally, I have no trouble with Musto's claim.  It is part of marketing and I would be a bit disappointed if they had set out to design and build something less.

Trapper, while I appreciate your "enthusiasm" for the innovation that comes with more open rules and for the Swift, I think that all but a couple of the large number of posts have been civilized and good observations.  I agree that a couple of people are consistently "off the mark" but the majority of the posts have been thoughtful and you've used rather sweeping accusations in painting the majority with the lunatic fringe brush.  I've found no issue with anything that Rick has said and he represents the Musto class.  His use of the picture he posted is no different than the pictures I've posted--we want to show our boats in the best light.  In fact, the Swift class does need to do a photo shoot and some video in heavy air and big waves--something that I had hoped to do this fall but ran out of time and timing.  

Rick, as you likely know, we are attempting to put together a Skiff Shootout with significant prize money where six top skiff sailors in the US will sail three Mustos and three Swifts in a round robin series with a winner take all approach for each race and for the regatta overall.  These will all be sailors with little or no experience in either boat.  The real objective will be to promote single handed skiff sailing and to get skiff sailors out in single handers.

Bram

Bram

I was pleased to read and informed by this thread and I hope trapper will slink back to Sailing Anarchy where insults are de rigueur.

I have been thinking of, I think it was Michael France's post, about the Box Rule. Where I sail, the CAT F18 rule has sold quite a few boats and is the best thing to happen to their fleets, since god knows when. I cant find Michael's exact post in this thread but I think I might end up with a swift, 9 lb lighter with a set of stubby racks that match the Musto width. This could be good?  In any case, the classes are what they are for good reasons and we have a perfectly good system in the PY if there are enough boats regularly racing with each other.

Of course PY will not keep the boats together on the course if the classes have a big difference in speed but it does show you how your personal effort racks up against others, and I for one am concerned about sailing well, improving. If I win great, but Im much more disappointed and then determined if I just don’t sail well. Its a pyrrhic victory to win in a faster yet unmatched boat which is why I like the idea of a good wind adjusted PY system. Cats where I am based use it to great effect and have a lot of fun. I have sailed my 49er against the local cats and the timing differences are in the seconds most races around the pins, providing me a good benchmark for our days effort.

At the moment I'm not convinced the s-skiffs have a really good PY ratio, Rick points out, rightly, that we have not had enough sailing together (and I think that’s a shame). It would be of great importance, I think, to carefully analyze the latest MPS/700 timing data from the regattas Rick mentions to get better confidence in the current PY or adjust it so that the 700s at local club events are on an equal footing. Has that data been put through sailwave for an estimated PY. Do people in the two fleets feel that the PY's are fine???

Since our MPS friends will be at the April SS  training session in Florida maybe we could work on the US SS PY number there. I think the US numbers are just a mathematical translation from the UK numbers, yes?

There is a frustration obviously with expert opinion and I think we need to get out there and sail more together so that the experts can be right more often than not and we can all stay on the same page, leave the arguing behind, and get busy making our boats sail faster and improving our own personal performances and keep our laser on the reason we sail high performance skiffs  - to have more fun.

BTW Lets make sure we report the whole regatta results not just the top 10 so I will get my boats name out there at least once in a while :-)

SH

Sounds like a great event - I assume you are going to do this in SF bay; that would leave no shortage of classic pictures ...

"Sounds like a great event - I assume you are going to do this in SF bay; that would leave no shortage of classic pictures ..."

Rick,

We will likely have to follow the money for venue along with what will attract big names.  The six boats are in Seattle and the likelyhood of raising money for the event is most likely there as well.  I suspect that most top sailors have a "reputation" to protect and will want their first time out in these boats to be something other than crash and burn events where photos of them burning make the publications.  Also, chances are in Seattle (during the early summer) that over two or three days you will get two or three different wind conditions.  We will likely import some sailors from the SF Bay for the event since it is the other hot spot (besides Seattle) for skiff sailing in the US.

Thanks again Rick

Bram 

Sorry guys,

I had no idea that this photo would turn out this big--holly crap!

The main problem with that theory is that a lot of sailors in the UK have seen the MPS perform to the standards Rick has shown in the picture. They are lively boats and do perform well in heavier conditions. The boats seem really well balanced and I think that's why people have been questioning the design of the swift solo as its a narrower boat with more sail area. I, like most other people, won't judge a serious boat before I have seen it sail, or sailed it myself and that's why I rate the MPS highly. I'll wait to see the Swift Solo sail before I start rating her.