New Posts New Posts RSS Feed: Olympic Classes
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Olympic Classes

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 20>
Author
Ent Man View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 29 Mar 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 32
Post Options Post Options   Quote Ent Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Olympic Classes
    Posted: 10 May 04 at 1:25pm

Back to rudders.

 

The fact that the 49er rules seam to a bit weak in the area of the rudder box/tiller etc is not supprising.  Many class rules are weak in this area.  Although I have not looked at all of them there are a number of rules which don't even mention the rudder stock or tiller and others wich state that the design and materials are optional. 

The Solo class rules are quite firm stating the material and giving a design with small tollerences.

The enterprise class rules go for the optional design and materials route.  This has probably been written to allow aluminium stocks and tillers to replace the early wooden ones.  This leaves the rule open for people to experiment with carbon fibre, flaps etc

If the rudder stock and blade are not included in the overal length of the boat then there is no reason why the stock can't be extended back by several feet to lengthen the waterline. Not much fun when you're on port tack trying to cross another boat though.

Campaign for longer weekends and therefore more sailing!
Back to Top
redback View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: Tunbridge Wells
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1502
Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 May 04 at 9:20pm

Back to Olympic classes.  Surely there shouldn't be any keel boats in the Olympics.  Olympic classes need to be

  • a test of athleticism
  • good spectator sport
  • strict one-design
  • non technical
  • cheap

 

Back to Top
Sarah B View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 15 Mar 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 92
Post Options Post Options   Quote Sarah B Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 04 at 12:57am

Here are my thoughts to redback's suggestions

Originally posted by redback

Back to Olympic classes.  Surely there shouldn't be any keel boats in the Olympics.  Olympic classes need to be

  • a test of athleticism - This covers virtually all small boats I can think of. However Andy Rice, in last issue of Y&Y commented how little he did at the back of the 49er from an athletic point of view compared to the work he now does crewing a Int14. But most wouldn't say that sailing a 49er isn't athletic 
  • good spectator sport - This depends on who is doing the filming for the TV audience - even exciting races (think formula one motor racing) can seem boring if they are filmed dubiously. Thinking of how the West Kirby team racing event was just run - perhaps this type of event would appeal to many with so many races happening close to the shore?
  • strict one-design - how strict? Laser type? But what about one design within parameters so a wider proportion of the population could sail the boat competitively? (Yes I know I sail a Europe so am biased!)
  • non technical - what do you mean by non-technical? In this respect do you mean strict one-design, or non-development?
  • cheap - is good. The ISAF athlete participation programme is a great way to start in this respect, and perhaps it should be encouraged further? See an ISAF press release http://www.sailing.org/Article_content.asp?ArticleID=7153 from today.

 

I am sure the powers that be will decide shortly!! Any comments?



Edited by Sarah B
Back to Top
redback View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: Tunbridge Wells
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1502
Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 May 04 at 11:18pm

The Europe might just be the boat to illustrate my point.  I understand that the Europe is a boat where a mast is needed to match the helms weight and that will take some trial and error which is expensive since a change of mast probaly means a change of sail too.

The Star is another boat in a similar vein.  I think an Olympic boat should be one where competitors would feel happy to swap boat between races.  The Laser epitomises this and the 49er does almost.

Back to Top
redback View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: Tunbridge Wells
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1502
Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 04 at 11:35pm
Incidentally helming a 49er is an extremely athletic activity. Personally I can't compare it with crewing a 14 but I'd be willing to try it if any 14 helm is prepared to try me.  I should warn the 14 helm that I was exhausted after 20 minutes on the helm of the 49er!
Back to Top
Adoo View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 64
Post Options Post Options   Quote Adoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 04 at 9:18am
Originally posted by redback

The Europe might just be the boat to illustrate my point.  I understand that the Europe is a boat where a mast is needed to match the helms weight and that will take some trial and error which is expensive since a change of mast probaly means a change of sail too.

The Star is another boat in a similar vein.  I think an Olympic boat should be one where competitors would feel happy to swap boat between races.  The Laser epitomises this and the 49er does almost.

Do you think Chris Boardman would have swapped bikes? Would Linford Christie have swapped shoes? Try to convince Redgrave, Pinsett et al that they'd be just as good with someone elses gear, and they will laugh you out of town.

Sailing is man and machine in harmony. The more perfect that harmony, the more successful the team. It's not just about jumping into a boat and sailing - these  guys have done their home work, all of them, Laser, 49er, Finn, Stars and Europe sailors have spent months if not years trying to reach that perfection.

You can argue all day about reducing the number of variables - people will still tweek their equipment in the search for speed, thats part of our sport.

Just because you are a dinghy sailor, that does not mean there is no place for keelboats in the olympics. In many ways, the Star is the most important fleet. Just look at the talent there - where else would that fleet happen?

 

Better to be overpowered in the gusts than underpowered in the lulls!
Back to Top
Neil View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 15 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 37
Post Options Post Options   Quote Neil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 04 at 7:22pm

Redback,

If you got tired after 20 mins, I assume that you weren't doing the decent thing, and giving the crew the mainsheet?.. after all, I've found from crewing 49'ers that life as a crew is just far too easy, with nothing to worry about except that itsy bitsy hankerchief of a kite to raise, drop and keep sheeted.....so it'd be far too boring without a mainsheet to keep you occupied as well...... I'm glad I'm not helming, and having them nasty tiller extension thingy-m-bobs to wear me out...

Rgds

Neil

RS700
GBR821
_/) _/)
Back to Top
redback View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 16 Mar 04
Location: Tunbridge Wells
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1502
Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 04 at 11:25pm

On the couple of occasions that I've sailed the 49er I've found that great agility is required at the same time as great strength.  Now I can be agile (sort of) and I can be strong (reasonably) but to be both strong and agile at the same time is a challenge and I can do it adequately for only a short while.  As my son has reminded me, to be both strong and agile is a definition of athletic.  There can be few boats that require these two qualities in such abundance and that is why it is such a great boat for the olympics.

Now the Star requires many abilities and for those that like to excercise these abilities the Star is a great choice, but one is money and that doesn't fit into the olympic ideal.

Another point, for many classes the olympics are not the highest level of competition.  It might be that the top half dozen Melges protagonists are all American.  They would have a much more competitive series of races at their world championships than at the olympics since only one American would be able to attend the olympics.

Back to Top
Jon Emmett View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 15 Mar 04
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 988
Post Options Post Options   Quote Jon Emmett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 04 at 12:08am

Looking at the aim of the Olympics, it does seem that the 49er and the Laser fit the bill near perfectly.

Regards 49er helming the most tiring thing is if you capsize (and we know what the answer to that is)...

The crew must do 70% of the work, and it is not unusal for me (standing at the back) to get quite cold, whilst the crew is sweating like anything!

However the specific fitness requirement of a 49er crew and a Laser helm although both very high, are very different.

Jon

 

Back to Top
Chris 249 View Drop Down
Really should get out more
Really should get out more
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 04
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2041
Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 04 at 1:28pm

Adoo, you said to look at the Star fleet and asked where else would that level of competition be. Others here have tried to say that Laser sailing isn’t a good training ground for more “technical” classes.

 

I find it fascinating that many people at the top of the Star fleet are more successful there, than they were in Lasers. Look at Star bronze medalist and world champ Beashel – he was a national Laser champ once (IIRC) in several years of trying, and he never got close to winning the worlds. Look at Ian Percy. Good in Lasers, very good in Finns, the best in Stars. How can that indicate that the class in which he got beaten (Lasers) is somehow inferior to Stars? How can it show that Laser sailors can’t learn how to sail “technical” boats like Finns and Stars.

 

Our (Australian) Olympic rep in Finns is OK internationally at finns – he never made it OK nationally in lasers.

 

Look at Ben Ainslie – eight months from starting Finn sailing, to winning the worlds. How the hell can that be an indication that Laser sailors can’t learn?

 

And back in the ‘70s, sailors like John Bertrand from the USA moved from Lasers to Finns and very quickly did much better than sailors like John Bertrand from Australia, who spent years in Finns AND has a Masters in Engineering in Finn (or 12m)sails! So one had huge amounts of technical knowledge, and the other was a Laser sailor – and the Laser sailor was a better Finn sailor!

 

Surely the indications are that Laser sailors learn very quickly (because of the level of competition) to analyse what makes people go fast- whether it’s kinetics or mast bend. Other classes seem to have an ethos that it’s the gear, or the weather, or the weight, or the whatever. That’s a crippling attitude that is rare at the front of the Laser fleet, and even in the middle levels. It’s common in the back of the fleet, that’s why they are back there.

 

I remember when I was in another class, hearing a good national-level sailor talking to a mid-level Olympian after a Laser race. The talk between the two was devoid of ego or excuses –it was just an exchange of information from two people who want to LEARN, of the sort you hear much less often in other classes.

 

And if Europe are "farirer"- look at the wonderful task that was creating Shirley Robertson’s Europe mast for 2000. It included buying one tonne of solid aluminium to machine it into a mandril. Then several prototypes were made and team members had to sand them from the INSIDE. The top 2 competitors used custom masts; Shirley’s masts each cost 50% more than the “expensive” wing masts of the 1996 games.

 

So how many people are in the weight range where they can sail Europes but not Radials, AND have access to that sort of cash? Remember, if you’re talking equity in weights, surely you also have to talk equity in funding. Just because UK sailors have lots of cash doesn’t mean you can ignore the rest of the world and call it fair.

 

And finally, having raced (with success) against a former women’s Laser Radial champ and against the guys who finished 1st, 3rd and 4th in the Radial worlds, I’d be amazed if the weight range for Radials is as tight as some people here think it is.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 45678 20>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.665y
Copyright ©2001-2010 Web Wiz
Change your personal settings, or read our privacy policy