(Yes yes, I know there are Olympic classes that are not dinghys, but where else should I put this??)

Andrew Hurst, in his editorial in the May issue of Seahorse says, of Olympic sailing;

".... The first thing to do is to trim the show..... Pare it down and modern small-boat sailing has few discilines: solo, skiff-dinghy, multihull, windsurfing and keelboat. That is five. It is no longer about what is desirable, split-gender classes wherever possible, for example. We surely no longer need one popular and one unpopular keelboat and three solo dinghys..."

Remember that you may have never seen a Star actually sailing, but he describes it as a "popular" keelboat because he has one.

So what do we think? Do we want everything to change? A full olympic team is 18 sailors (correct me if I'm wrong) currently, plus all of the support staff, reserves / training partners. Is sailing worthy of such a huge chunk of olympic space - would we prefer to have more track and field athletes, weight lifters, boxers, and fewer sailors? Is there a way that sailing can be made more televisual?

What should be dropped? Should anything be dropped? Remember that what is popular in the UK might not be popular anywhere else - is global appeal necessary, or classes that test the sailors fully - technical boats, or spectacular whizz bang machines? Is there a class that men and women can compete equally in?

Your thoughts, ladies and gentlemen, pleae

Ah Adoo you fercker written after being at the pub then?

A lot of bollocks if you ask me

Will take a more sober look when at work on Tuesday

A couple of points have to be made.

1. A full olympic team is one in which a nation has a boat in every class... that is not the case for some nations. You cannot just assume that everyone is going to have the funding, and amount of talent and time (not to mention weather) in their region that will allow them to even get to the olympics. So think about that when you consider a full racing team.

2. A diminshing number of sailors would not directly result in more participants in other areas of the olympics. It would just mean that there are less classes involved in the olympics.

3. There is no way to be completely global and have everyone agree... different boats originated in different places and different boats are more popular in different places. So, if you tried to scrap the 470, i'm sure that the french would have something to say about that, but the americans might not be so passionate about keeping it in.

4. One advantage of cutting classes is that better sailors are grouped together in less classes, making it more exciting.

5. As for women in the sport, i think that sailing is one of the sports where women are on a mostly equal footing, because the sport requires more than just plain muscle, and women can think just as well as their male counterparts. Plus, having watched women beat men continuously both at the local yacht club and at regattas, i'd say the gender issue is not as big as people make it.

6. When we say "do we want everything to change?" What are we thinking? Everything is going to change regardless of whether or not we want it to. It is how we manage change and make sure that it is for the best, as opposed to trying to stop change. He who resists change gets left behind. Or looks like George Bush, you pick.

7. I have seen a star sail (one of the top star sailors in Canada is a member of my yacht club) and they are incredibly popular because they remain one of the true physical and mental tests on a sailor. The competition is cut-throat and the boats last forever. They tried taking them out and it didn't work.

I think that it would work best with a double-handed skiff (changes with technology), windsurfer, star, laser, tornado (open to change, again), and a finn, and possibly a light-weight boat.

Hi, on the subject of olympic classes, can anyone advise why the 470 is not a popular  UK club class? It appears that if dropped from the olympics they would dissapear. Available at second hand prices from reasonable to knock down cheap, with ex-race spars sails and even hulls available at reasonable price, what is is about this class that doesnt appeal to the UK club racer?

As I wanted a GRP boat for ease of maintenance and my local club is all handicap, not having two boats the same, I recently bought an old(very old) but good nick and dirt cheap one. Being in a handicap fleet whatever I bought it doesnt matter so much, so this was a cheap option for a planing/spinnaker/trapeze boat, but I'm dissapointed not to see an open circuit except for the likes of serious contenders for the europeans or olympics.

I'd be interested to hear views on the class.

regards,

Si.

Si,

Sounds like the boat you are looking for is a Fireball.

Cheers Jon

Firstly
---------
Adoo i apologies for my first post after a hard day at work and a bottle of wine got the best of me.
I wrongly assumed that the Y&Y swear o'meter would counteract me at the time.
Obviously not programmed for the B word or the Irish F word.

Secondly
-------------
Agree with Jon that Si should get a Fireball.

As after being the 470 Class Sec for a number of years, i know all too well its problems.
The class suffers from a bad handicap compared to similar boats (eg Fireball) due to the way the PY system works as a long time a go a lot of good people sailed 470's at club level, (hence some good PY returns) but not many average, poorer sailors.
This was when there was a 'club deal' on for them to help encourage/introduce what in the late '70's was a new Olympic class.
This lead to the class gaining a handicap which has a Catch22 as you need to be good to sail to it effectively so discouraging more club sailors to take up the class at this time.
Where as other similar classes have a wide spectrum of ability sailing at club level so if 80% are not that good the remaining 20% receive the rewards of the PY returns made by them. 

This 'club deal' also created a lot of boats which where not built to the guidelines introduced in the early nighties to stop the stigma of 470's being SOFT boats. If you have no rules governing boat strength of course your going to save on laminate at the ends, hence the club bar chat of ' oh a 470 aren't they soft and don't last', not anymore. All it uses to take was looking at the aft buoyancy tanks for them to crack under the wait of spray.

Now you have a situation due to funding that there is a class of boat in the UK where the secondhand value is rock bottom, especially for sails (imagine how many suits a 470 campaigner goes through a year!) but there is no one to sail them as it has a handicap that discourages average club sailors.

Why sail a 470 and struggle to beat Fireballs etc on the handicap when you can fork out a bit more and have fleet sailing with which ever class is better rated at your local club. Though having sailed both a 470 is a lot nicer and roomier to be in. Just ask Mr Wade.

So you have it the dilemma of the 470 in the UK.!?

Thanks, that was very informative. 

I can't get a Fireball yet guys, I only just got this boat! I'm not dissapointed with the actual boat and it fits my purpose for the time being, just a bit of wishful thinking re the class circuit really.Cant see any signs of cracking or weakness either.. I believe it was one of the first UK builds so maybe built before they were made softer at the ends (?) Perhaps I can persuade my clubs OOD to adjust my handicap!!

Anyway, thanks again for the advice and comments.

Regards

Si.

If the 470 got replaced it would need to be replaced by light weight two person boat. In my humble option high performance... how about a 39er? (half way between 29er and 49er) could be mens and womens or even a mixed class...

Jon

One of the debates rging currently is between measurement / and licenced builder classes - yachts like europes and 470 need to be measured, while lasers and 49ers are built under licence.

Problem is that if you take a dagger board from one particular 49er builder, and try to put it into another boat, then it does not fit, yet both are legal 49ers. I'm sure that ISAF will want to avoid another situation like this.

Some classes have supplied equipment, and drawn out of a hat, the Laser was done this way in Sydney. Apparently some of the laser sails in Sydney were "shocking" - quite possibly altering the results. When the olympics is such an important point in a sailors carear, selecting differing equipment "out of a hat" is surely unnaceptable.  

Clearly ISAF have, for this event anyway, nailed their colours to the "measured" mast - there will be problems, predictably with the Ynglings, and probably with europes too... With the change of management due this autumn, and with the possibility of difficulty in the measurement tent in Athens, it could be that the new regime goes for all licenced builders, or supplied equipment.

Both Laser radial and Pico are trying for their boats to be used as womens single hander for 2008, in place of Europe - simple boats rather than technical - but is that what is best for sailing? A Europe sailor might need to employ a 'technical' to get the gear right, but does it make the Europe sailor better than a leaser R sailor?

 The Yngling too is under threat, even though its the first time they've been used. Anyone got an idea of what they could use as a replacement? SB3??? 

Can we keep this thread on olympic classes and not about fireballs?

Boats like 49er and Lasers are measured at events. A good example of the differences are that Ozzy spars for Lasers are 25% stiffer than the ones we buy in the UK. Hence people in strict one design boats will still tend to have their favourite mast, hull, sails etc and put together, these add up to a small speed advantage.

I think that the out of a hat system (like for the Laser Worlds) works well and therefore the Radial would be a good boat for the 2008 games. The technique side of Radial sailing is very similiar to the Europe... meaning the best sailors win, with no advantage to be gained from technical development.

Jon

PS Sorry no more mention of Fireballs!

Sorry Adoo the topic change was my fault

Si.

I think there are many advantages of the 470 class in the UK. 

Although it is a small class, the quality of sailing, as expected of an Olympic class, is incredibly high.  You can learn so much from the other sailors in the fleet. 

I only started sailing the boats in November, after never having trapezed before or, from previous classes had to worry too much about critical boat tuning - I never knew that much about it.  Now I've been sailing 470s for 5-6months, I can see just how important it is. 

Unlike so many dinghy classes in the UK, the 470 fleet are always happy to help anybody. I know we struggle with boat speed even now, and there is little point in racing in a small fleet until you're up to speed, and everyone offers their opinions and knowledge. When people try out new things, people are interested, as opposed to other classes, where perhaps they would ridicule them.

The other advantage of the class, is that although it is small, you get the competitiveness from the funding qualifications to go abroad, and even if you don't qualify for funding, most events you can go to anyway, fairly cheaply. (I know this, being a student)!

I could go on even more, but I wont...

The class still has an active association, visit http://www.arrowsails.co.uk/gbr470 - www.arrowsails.co.uk/gbr470 for more information. 

Originally posted by IanW Fireballs are great.

No comment!

Both Laser radial and Pico are trying for their boats to be used as womens single hander for 2008, in place of Europe

why not use the topper byte is this boat not in the line up of boats that could be trialed

This is the link to the submissions made to ISAF for future Olympic classes

http://www.sailing.org/meetings/submissions/2004/May04.asp - http://www.sailing.org/meetings/submissions/2004/May04.asp

Puzzled that Jon wrote above that antipodean laser spars are stiffer - query then the strict one design?

If the Europe isn't chosen again then the re-sale value of my boat will drop and I will be even more broke!  As for the Europe perceived to be elitist - in this country everyone has been brill since I made my swimming entrance to the class - and far from being elitist.

Regards the Laser, looking at the Spars my UK Upper mast weighs 2.4 KGs and gets very bend when I sail in the upper wind range. The Ozzy boat I chartered came with a Upper mast of 3.0KG and was straight after every race!!! Quite a difference I am assure you will agree...

Regards the Europe class. I think the are a lot of cool people in the class but it is those outside the class who view it as Elitest...

Regards the Byte I think the reason it is not being tested as an Olympic boat is due to the number of countries it is sailed in..

Is popularity what is desirable??? I agree that boats need to be raced in most sailing areas / zones, but I don't think that size of fleet is a factor.

Surely a much bigger factor is complexity of the boat. Yachts like the Byte, Pico, and Laser Radial are pretty unsophisticated, untechnical.

Although competitors learn to hike and pump, balance is about body position, and this does not really lead on to a further carrear in sailing - If we take the mens side as a perfect example, the technology curve goes from Laser to Finn to Star to ACC boat.... Remove the Finn and Star and you remove the stepping stones between base level and the top of the sport.

Same is true in womens sailing - surely given time we will see more women coming through Laser Radials at youth stage, Europes, Ynglings and then on to bigger boats.

Replace the Europe with 'something simpler' and youve removed a vital link in the chain.

Technical boat please. Don't dumb down the sport.

I guess the arguement is whether the sailor with the best techique should win or should the sailor with the best technique development win?

The problem with very techniqual boats is it will limit the number of people/countries which can affort to compete in the class. As far as I am aware the Int Moth is not sailed in a huge number of countries...

I think that having two Laser boats in the Olympics may be one reason the Radial may not get selected but it is a good option. Personnally I do not know how the Pico can be seriously considered!!!

Highly technical boats really drive our sport forward, just look at the I14 but the Olympic scene is not the appropriate place, here I think we are looking for the more gladiatorial type conflict where you are just chucked in the arena (with a off the shelf boat).

Now Dr Clifford has a point about Athens..... It could be Olympic "It's a Knockout".  Could have topper raft racing,  plank walking, 49'er fancy dress.  Yes that's definitely the way ahead.  Would take peoples minds off everything else.

Oh yes... Yngling mast dancing, if you get my drift....

I guess the problem is that there are actually few boats that are truely 'world' classes, ISAF recognition is one thing but how many of these classes are really sailed by a majority of countries?!  We are very lucky in the UK having such a depth of different classes, and we have to remember that a lot of countries are not in this position. 

As for replacing the Europe:

Firstly:  Why does it need to be changed in the first place?

Secondly: I agree totally with Dr C's comment.  The Pico was designed as a training boat for children, as far as i can remember the optimum weight for the race sail is about 50kg, I do not mean to be rude but i guess that the majority of current europe fleet are a little bit bigger than that. 

Thirdly:  The Laser Radial or the Byte is the girls boat at the ISAF youth worlds and so kids will be used to them, in the same way that the Laser1 is for the men.  Then again you have the problem with the Radial of one company having an advantage. 

Are there any other ideas of boats?

I was playing devils advocate when I suggested the Int Moth. My personal view is that an olympic class should be respected as a serious racing boat which is widely available, gives close tactical racing and be a class that the average sailor can relate to.

Personally I think the laser Radial with the XD pack is a good choice.  A further point that organisers would consider is that having by having two classes of lasers they only need to supply one set of boats and run the radial competition before the full rig competition.

Definitely a difficult one with so many political and personnel influences to it.

Don't think there will every be a right or wrong class for the Games.

In the end of the day it will always be the better sailor who wins no matter what they are sailing at the time.

Regards the Byte for the Olympic class, it is simply not sailed in enough countries. Think how hard it would be for those down under to campaign... it is hard enough for them in Lasers! (At least there is a good 'home' fleet but most of their campaigning is still done in Europe).

The probablem with changes within one design classes is you get the situation like the 49er 2004 World Champions sailed with a rudder stock out of class dimensions...

Jon

As far as developing all round sailors is concerned, is there a better boat than the Europe?

Sure, a laser radial will teach them about tactics and wind shifts, but a europe teaches them about tactics, windshifts, kinetics on the race course, mast position, bend characteristics, matching sails to spars, gyradius, and many many other aspects of modern sailing.

Example; Glenn Bourke won 3 Laser worlds in a row (in the 80's). Ben Ainslie won 3 Finn Gold cups in a row(from 2002 to 2004). Both are FANTASTIC sailors, don't get me wrong. Yet now Ben is being hailed as THE sailor of our genertion, but Glen was not, at that time.

I think that this is because the Fin is a much more difficult boat to sail well than the Laser.

But I am NOT detracting from Glen's achievement, in the slightest..... 

I think that we need our Olympians to be all round sailors. Comments please.....

I used to think the Laser was such a good boat because it taught you all the key skills but now I realise it doesn't.  In fact I used to wonder why people sailed the boatspeed type boats like Fireballs, Contenders etc because they tacked so slowly you couldn't take advantage of the windshifts.

Then I sailed a RS800 and realised that you've got to have a boat of a yardstick less than about 920 to experience a 4th dimension - its called apparent wind sailing.  To experience it you have to have a trapeze and a spinnaker so large you can't beam reach with it - in other words you need a skiff.  Try it there's nothing like it for "grin factor"

To sail one, you have to be atheletic - only the 49er fits the bill of the current Olympic classes.  The others shouldn't be in the Olympics, many are fine boats for a hobby, but not for Olympians.

Enough of the ODs - Why shouldn't there be a development class in the Olympics?

Think about the other olympic sports that involve "equipment" - say cycling - Chris Boardman didn't wiin his olympic medals on a One Design Bike.  You can't seriously say Steve Redgrave won his medals in one design rowing boats and 3 day eventers certainly don't win their medals on one design horses!

So try this for size -

lightweights single hander = Int. Moth

lightweights 2 man boat = Cherub

Fat boys single hander = ++

Fat boys 2 man boat = I14

Cat = Formula 16HP

Keel boat = ??

But isn't there a view that says that one design boats are cheaper and more accessible to all.

We all know the view of Mr Henderson about fairness, accessibility and equality for all countries regardless of how much funding!

Have to say though that if we go for the development class idea does the whole cost of the Olympics and Olympic sailing become even more expensive and elitist than it is already perceived to be?

No, don't put our development classes in the Olympics, it'll spoil them for the rest of us!

Besides, the Olympians wouldn't have anything fun to come back to after all that serious stuff...

I think Development classes and Olympic classes should remain two seperate things! Regards 14er comment, it is interesting to see Ex-49er duo Richardson and Greenhaugh have recently been seen in a I14...

Imagine the problem if the I Moth was the single handed class and the development of the flying hulls had come at Athens -> What you had was lots of tight racing, then at the Olympics one boat is simply "flying" and wins every race! Not good to watch and hard on someone who has campaigned for four years only to find on the day he can not compete in terms of boat speed.

Continued development, although vital for the sport does limit the number of top teams... Ideally at the Olympic you want as many Nations represented as possible!

Looking at the current classes, it is only the UK and France who have a representative in every class in Athens...

Jon

Only boats which are very strictly One Design are suitable for the Olympics.  Look what happened to the Flying Dutchman - the rules weren't strict so those that could afford it had titanium centre boards!

Hasn't something similar happened with the 49er and their rudders?

Chris

As I said, "But I am NOT detracting from Glenn's achievement, in the slightest..... "

Glenn is a fantastic sailor, and has achieved an enormous ammount - I wasn't ever suggesting anything different. I have a huge amount of respect for him - clearly I did not emphisise that in my example.

So what do you think? Loose the Finn, loose the Laser, or leave it as it is? Or use something different?

Ben Ainslie has been on record saying that he found the learning curve very steep when he started in the Finn. I think he is close to being "the sailor of our generation" and will therefore win in almost anything, but I think that having the Finn helps him prove that he is.

Back to rudders.

The fact that the 49er rules seam to a bit weak in the area of the rudder box/tiller etc is not supprising.  Many class rules are weak in this area.  Although I have not looked at all of them there are a number of rules which don't even mention the rudder stock or tiller and others wich state that the design and materials are optional. 

The Solo class rules are quite firm stating the material and giving a design with small tollerences.

The enterprise class rules go for the optional design and materials route.  This has probably been written to allow aluminium stocks and tillers to replace the early wooden ones.  This leaves the rule open for people to experiment with carbon fibre, flaps etc

If the rudder stock and blade are not included in the overal length of the boat then there is no reason why the stock can't be extended back by several feet to lengthen the waterline. Not much fun when you're on port tack trying to cross another boat though.

Back to Olympic classes.  Surely there shouldn't be any keel boats in the Olympics.  Olympic classes need to be

• a test of athleticism
• good spectator sport
• strict one-design
• non technical
• cheap

Here are my thoughts to redback's suggestions

I am sure the powers that be will decide shortly!! Any comments?

The Europe might just be the boat to illustrate my point.  I understand that the Europe is a boat where a mast is needed to match the helms weight and that will take some trial and error which is expensive since a change of mast probaly means a change of sail too.

The Star is another boat in a similar vein.  I think an Olympic boat should be one where competitors would feel happy to swap boat between races.  The Laser epitomises this and the 49er does almost.

Do you think Chris Boardman would have swapped bikes? Would Linford Christie have swapped shoes? Try to convince Redgrave, Pinsett et al that they'd be just as good with someone elses gear, and they will laugh you out of town.

Sailing is man and machine in harmony. The more perfect that harmony, the more successful the team. It's not just about jumping into a boat and sailing - these  guys have done their home work, all of them, Laser, 49er, Finn, Stars and Europe sailors have spent months if not years trying to reach that perfection.

You can argue all day about reducing the number of variables - people will still tweek their equipment in the search for speed, thats part of our sport.

Just because you are a dinghy sailor, that does not mean there is no place for keelboats in the olympics. In many ways, the Star is the most important fleet. Just look at the talent there - where else would that fleet happen?

Redback,

If you got tired after 20 mins, I assume that you weren't doing the decent thing, and giving the crew the mainsheet?.. after all, I've found from crewing 49'ers that life as a crew is just far too easy, with nothing to worry about except that itsy bitsy hankerchief of a kite to raise, drop and keep sheeted.....so it'd be far too boring without a mainsheet to keep you occupied as well...... I'm glad I'm not helming, and having them nasty tiller extension thingy-m-bobs to wear me out...

Rgds

Neil

On the couple of occasions that I've sailed the 49er I've found that great agility is required at the same time as great strength.  Now I can be agile (sort of) and I can be strong (reasonably) but to be both strong and agile at the same time is a challenge and I can do it adequately for only a short while.  As my son has reminded me, to be both strong and agile is a definition of athletic.  There can be few boats that require these two qualities in such abundance and that is why it is such a great boat for the olympics.

Now the Star requires many abilities and for those that like to excercise these abilities the Star is a great choice, but one is money and that doesn't fit into the olympic ideal.

Another point, for many classes the olympics are not the highest level of competition.  It might be that the top half dozen Melges protagonists are all American.  They would have a much more competitive series of races at their world championships than at the olympics since only one American would be able to attend the olympics.

Looking at the aim of the Olympics, it does seem that the 49er and the Laser fit the bill near perfectly.

Regards 49er helming the most tiring thing is if you capsize (and we know what the answer to that is)...

The crew must do 70% of the work, and it is not unusal for me (standing at the back) to get quite cold, whilst the crew is sweating like anything!

However the specific fitness requirement of a 49er crew and a Laser helm although both very high, are very different.

Jon

Adoo, you said to look at the Star fleet and asked where else would that level of competition be. Others here have tried to say that Laser sailing isn’t a good training ground for more “technical” classes.

I find it fascinating that many people at the top of the Star fleet are more successful there, than they were in Lasers. Look at Star bronze medalist and world champ Beashel – he was a national Laser champ once (IIRC) in several years of trying, and he never got close to winning the worlds. Look at Ian Percy. Good in Lasers, very good in Finns, the best in Stars. How can that indicate that the class in which he got beaten (Lasers) is somehow inferior to Stars? How can it show that Laser sailors can’t learn how to sail “technical” boats like Finns and Stars.

Our (Australian) Olympic rep in Finns is OK internationally at finns – he never made it OK nationally in lasers.

Look at Ben Ainslie – eight months from starting Finn sailing, to winning the worlds. How the hell can that be an indication that Laser sailors can’t learn?

And back in the ‘70s, sailors like John Bertrand from the USA moved from Lasers to Finns and very quickly did much better than sailors like John Bertrand from Australia, who spent years in Finns AND has a Masters in Engineering in Finn (or 12m)sails! So one had huge amounts of technical knowledge, and the other was a Laser sailor – and the Laser sailor was a better Finn sailor!

Surely the indications are that Laser sailors learn very quickly (because of the level of competition) to analyse what makes people go fast- whether it’s kinetics or mast bend. Other classes seem to have an ethos that it’s the gear, or the weather, or the weight, or the whatever. That’s a crippling attitude that is rare at the front of the Laser fleet, and even in the middle levels. It’s common in the back of the fleet, that’s why they are back there.

I remember when I was in another class, hearing a good national-level sailor talking to a mid-level Olympian after a Laser race. The talk between the two was devoid of ego or excuses –it was just an exchange of information from two people who want to LEARN, of the sort you hear much less often in other classes.

And if Europe are "farirer"- look at the wonderful task that was creating Shirley Robertson’s Europe mast for 2000. It included buying one tonne of solid aluminium to machine it into a mandril. Then several prototypes were made and team members had to sand them from the INSIDE. The top 2 competitors used custom masts; Shirley’s masts each cost 50% more than the “expensive” wing masts of the 1996 games.

So how many people are in the weight range where they can sail Europes but not Radials, AND have access to that sort of cash? Remember, if you’re talking equity in weights, surely you also have to talk equity in funding. Just because UK sailors have lots of cash doesn’t mean you can ignore the rest of the world and call it fair.

And finally, having raced (with success) against a former women’s Laser Radial champ and against the guys who finished 1^st, 3^rd and 4^th in the Radial worlds, I’d be amazed if the weight range for Radials is as tight as some people here think it is.

In Iain Percy's defence, I think the reason he did not reach his true potential (sailing legend) in the Laser class is his natural body weight in 90KGs+... not ideal laser weight!

I quite agree that the weight range is wider for the Radial than people think. It just gets pushed up or down if the event is windy or light, like any other class... What tends to happen is people sail better at the top end of the weight range as they have more experience then (and the youths gradually gain weight with time...)

Virtually all the UK Europe sailors have come from Radials. I can understand it being extremely hard to put together an Ozzy Europe campaign due to logistic problems alone.

Regards the costs I am always happy to jump into a borrowed/charter Laser and race competitively... I cannot think of another class where this is the same! There is certainly never a need to keep spending money (other than on sails!) to remain competitive.

It will be very interesting to see ISAF choice regards Olympic classes in November.

I agree that the ISAF choice will be interesting, and in particularly if they make public their debate about how they came to their decision. I think they are first discussing it 5-6 June in the US.

As for the logistical issues of putting together an Olympic campaign from the Southern Hemisphere - perhaps this is a flaw with the Olympic classes circuit as a whole rather than the choice of classes? With the next Olympics in China, should there be more Grade 1 regattas outside of Europe? I accept this would increase travelling costs, but would it encourage a wider level of participation? Is this not what ISAF is striving at?

I think that an important question should be is the boat good to sail at a grass roots level?

With that in mind I think that it should be fast. The Europe is a great boat to sail but to my mind is too slow.

If you are club racing the Lasers will probably get a class start the fast handicaps get a class start (and race away hanging from a wire) you are left with the Europe in the slow handicap with the toppers.

This is not an image that I feel sits well with the idea of an Olympic class.

Granite, I start and race with the Lasers and Radials. It is pretty cool as I have a benchmark and they provide good competition. I definitely wouldn't say the Europe is a slow boat as I usually beat some of the them over the water!!

The only problem I do have is the Wednesday evening starts where we have all classes on the start line at once - 30-45 boats ranging from me being the slowest to Hobies and 49ers. Getting clear air is then an issue - but the best thing is to start around the super fast boats as they sail away so quick you soon have cleaner air back again.

The class finally selected will have to be sailed widely around the world to allow the greatest participation of nations. I suspect that this will be one of the selection criteria used to make the final descision.

It is difficult to make a decision based on what start the boat starts in at a club.  At smaller clubs we don't have many trapeez boats and the fastest boat on the water at my club is a Phantom.  The slowest boat in our fast handicap fleet is the firefly.

Needles to say a good sailor can always sail above thier handicap when racing against less experienced sailors in faster handicaped boats.  It's all relative.

I agree that Britain will do well if the selected class is widely sailed in this country. I can't comment on other countries though.

Do the RYA read this forum?

>>the fastest boat on the water at my club is a Phantom. 

>>The slowest boat in our fast handicap fleet is the firefly.

All clubs are different - which makes the sport all the more interesting:

There is a club on the East Coast I visit often that has the RS400 as one of the slowest boats in the Fast Handicap fleet - and the 400 is quite a bit faster than the Phantom. Compared to 49er, RS700, RS800, Tornado and Spitfire's etc., the 400 is relatively slow.

By the way the Europe is a lovely boat to sail - a real thorough bred.  For those in the right weight range it must be a joy and also one of the fastest non-trapeze single handers (for their weight).

However I do feel an olympic boat should be very fast, spectacular even, since the sailors should be our most able.  This probably means a trapeze boat and since the olympics are sailed on the sea, why not?  I think we are talking RS700/Musto Skiff.  I also think these sorts of boats are less sensitive to weight, since agility is the primary determinant.

However boats like this are not good at tatics?

Redback,

Any asymmetric, including the single handers are just as tactically difficult to sail as any other single hander...

Tacking has a penalty in distance, and so picking the shifts is important, but getting the right side of the course to start with is more so.. but they really get into their tactical element downwind... mixing a combination of boat speed versus direction eg getting the best VMG is the most difficult aspect, alongside picking the right places to gybe, which downwind mark to round, and how to get the inside track at the marks...and this is why the best guys are really fast..

For sure these are different tactics, but they are still challenging to get right, and only the elite few get it right all the time...

I personally think that a single hander asymm would add another huge spectator element to Olympic sailing, but I would because I sail one!

Rgds

Neil

Thats what I was thinking, wouldn't something like a RS700 or Musto skiff? I think a Musto Skiff would be better seeeing as they have a larger fleet around the world, not big but still bigger than the RS700. They are both athletic boats and are require a great level of skill to do well in.

I sail an asymmetric too - so I know what you are talking about.  However the tactics are a little less complicated in as much as they generally amount to which corner to bang.  I'm talking upwind of course.  Down wind they make up for it by being much more tactical than the conventional spinnaker boats and also much more tactical than single sailed boats.

But what about my idea that this sort of boat is less sensitive to weight?

Link to an article on ISAF website re-the choice of dinghy including criteria.

http://www.sailing.org/Article_content.asp?ArticleID=7205 - http://www.sailing.org/Article_content.asp?ArticleID=7205

Here are some characteristics ISAF are looking at;

Men’s and Women’s Dinghy Events
Universally available equipment
Sailed worldwide
Suitable for average physique
Economical
Athletic
Technically simple, or out-of-the-box

Open Dinghy Events
Innovative: design; technology; format of racing; courses
Added media appeal
“Buzz” for young and established sailor
Fast and athletic

I think your Musto Skiffs/RS700s of this world fit perfectly in the Open Event, but then could women compete then too? Little confused as then the 49er is also an open event? 

Are trapeze boats less sensitive to weight? No.

If you do a Frank Bethwaite and crunch a lot of numbers the only way to make a boat totally insensitive to weight is to make the baot and rig weigh nothing, then it all evens out.

BUT it appears that having flip-top rigs like the musto skiff and RS700, 49er etc does reduce sensitivity to weight...

"Open Dinghy Events
Innovative: design; technology; format of racing; courses
Added media appeal
“Buzz” for young and established sailor
Fast and athletic"

So that will be the Foiler International Moth then.........

To clarify a point made.....the RS700/Musto Skiff are somewhat sensitive to weight...

In both cases, you need some weight to be able to get high when going downwind, otherwise every little puff of breeze forces you off downwind...

This is why the RS700 Class association has just voted in even wider wings (an extra 20cm each side) giving it over a metre of wing sticking out each side!.. its now unique in this category in being weight equalised at 66%, over a pretty wide weight range...

So... when we talk about weight sensitivity, we usually mean 'needs less', but in the asymm skiff case, often more is good! (but not always)

But I have to agree.... either of these boats would make great spectator sport... single handers airborne off waves downwind would look good on TV!

I'm a bit of an idealist and I was hoping that trapeze boats might enable women to compete on equal terms with men.  It seems unlikely that women are going to be competitive in Finns, but because agility is of greater significance with trapeze boats I thought women might have more of a chance.

IMHO it’s possible to get the best of both worlds.

Make the Mens/Womens events low cost, out of the box boats (e.g Laser/470), possibly even going for pooled boats and the same for both sexes. Good entry point for emerging nations as only about sailor’s ability.

The Open classes then become the home of the high tech/big thrills boats (e.g. 49er, Musto skiff/RS700). These will get the TV time/spectators.

Are you certain that the RS700/Musto Skiff fit these requirements

Men’s and Women’s Dinghy Events
Universally available equipment
Sailed worldwide
Suitable for average physique
Economical
Athletic
Technically simple, or out-of-the-box

I thought that both classes were a bit limited on numbers and are currently only popular in Britain and parts of Europe.

If the Musto Skiff was chosen for the Olympic Womens class and the laser retained for the mens boat that would look a bit odd.

I think that if the laser is good enough for the men's single hander then the laser radial must be ideal as the women's single hander.

Whew, for a moment I thought you were going to suggest an Ent.  I suppose the 470 actually come close as a boat for men and women to compete equally, but it needs to be a bit more spectacular.

That link by Sarah B is well worth following.

Both the RS700 and MPS are pretty much limited to Europe...

But... there are similar boats in other parts of the world.. (there is even a 3 sail single hander on sale in the US!!!!!!!!!)

So, whatever is chosen would need time to get world wide availability.. or we would be forced back to a class that is old enough to be well established... and I don't think that is what televised Olympics sailing needs right now..

I would argue that its chicken and egg... its difficult for ANY boat to become globally successful without something like the Olympics driving it....

What I personally would like to see is the best boat to meet their needs chosen, ignoring the global availability bit... it would soon become available globally if it was selected as an Olympic class... and both the MPS and RS700 are manufactured by someone other than the designer/promoter, so could be easily extended in much the same way as the 49'er has been... that has worked well...

The Musto Perfromance Skiff is on its way to becoming an International boat, though i don't see why a single handed asymetric boat has to replace the finn.  Many people are put off by the thought of single hand boats with kites as they deem it hard to sail (myself not included as i think it would be great), also it would restrict the type of course that could be laid, and also the wind in which the races could take part.  I do feel however that the finn is maybe not the ideal single handed male boat, as you have to be pretty heavy to sail one effectively, something like a topper blaze where you can adjust the wings might be a good idea, or the rs600, but once again they fall into the trap of not be sailed internationally.

Why so, I see a few of the better Musto Skiff sailors coping with proper wind (F5+) quite easliy at Grafham a few months ago.  Guess the rest of the fleet has some catching up to do.

You don't need to get high with a windward/leeward course.  These boats sound just right for men and women to compete equally.

This is why the RS700 Class association has just voted in even wider wings (an extra 20cm each side) giving it over a metre of wing sticking out each side!.. its now unique in this category in being weight equalised at 66%, over a pretty wide weight range...

I'd like to know more about this 66% - what does that mean?

Having sailed Lasers with reasonable success at club level, it's fair to say that they're a very good tactical class with largely equal performance regardless of the boats age. The racing is usually quite close and it makes you think hard about how you're going to beat someone if neither of you makes many mistakes.

However, the learning curve going into an RS300 has been colossal - the challenge is totally different and its safe to say the boat is altogether more difficult to sail. On top of all this you then have the tactical issue! The physical challenge is far greater in the 300 and it carries a wide range of weights well - unfortunately its a very small class but I would imagine it would be an ideal class to replace the Finn Laser and Europe with!

Yes I like the idea of a 300 for the olympic single hander.  A bit of agility and brains and not so much emphasis on brawn.  I used to be a keen Laser man too and its a fabulouse boat to learn all sorts of tactical, windshift, close racing skills.  An important apprentiship before moving onto something exciting.  I wish I'd moved out of the class before I'd dedicated 12 years to something which by todays' standards is slow.

Now I've tried a 300, wow, but I'm not sure about sailing it over any big steep waves!

One major problem with the 300 being at the Olympics is the issue of international status.  None of the RS boats as far as I know have traveled outside of europe and I believe that the 300 has not even really made it this far either. 

Of the boats mentioned above the Musto is the only one with any real chance of replacing the Finn (I believe that the Laser should stay given that is the single most popular dinghy on the planet and as such deserves Olympic status) given that it is being built in several places around the world. 

It is an important dicission for a class to consider International or Olympic status as it means giving up some control to the sports governing bodies and also it will mean a shift in the kind of competition within the class.  The Europe is one example where since Olympic selection the class has declined somewhat in the UK, posibly as a result of men leaving what is now (however wrongly) percieved as a 'girls' boat.  This is probably more an exception that the rule but it will always be seen, by other classes, as a cautionary tale if nothing else. 

The 18' skiffs were invited to the selection process for replacing the Flying Dutchman, which resulted in the selection of the 49er.  The class declined as it was felt that Olympic sailing would be counter to the ideals of the class. 

I guess the point I am trying to make is that we, in the UK, are very lucky to have such a wide miriad of classes to choose from.  Many of which could work well at the Olympics, but we have to remember that many countries do not have this range, and others will have classes that we do not see, which they feel would be right for the games as well.  Besides do you really want all the Olympic hot-shots in your class stopping the average sailer getting anywhere near the silverwear?

I believe there are several times more Sunfish than Finns - the last time I looked there were in excess of 100,000!  I can't understand the enthusiasm for Finns.

By this logic then, I presume that all grand prix should be raced in Ford Ka's, rather than F1 cars, as there are clearly many many more Ford Ka's around than anything else.....

Really, this has turned into a "The boat I sail is really sweet, they should use that in the Olympics" debate, which is rather narrow minded. Redback, have you ever sailed a Finn? Before you personally decide that it should not be an olympic class, maybe you should go and sail one.

Its not about which boat sails fastest, or indeed which has the most boats around the world, its about finding a boat that is globally recognised, and very challenging to sail, through technique, fitness, and ability.

None of the RS's have made it beyond Europe, so forget them. Great boats they might be, but if the rest of the world does not have them, then they are a non-starter. The Laser is a global class, but is not exactly technically challenging - sure good tactics, good racing, but a mainsheet, a vang, an outhaul and a cunningham don't exactly push the boundries.....

The Olympics is one of the pinnacles of our sport, for the sailors there to transfer their talent to any of the other pinacles, be it Americas Cup, Admirals Cup, Single handed or ocean racing, right through to 18ft Skiff racing, they need to be tested fully, not in an over simplistic way that the Laser does, but with a full test of their understanding of how to get the best out of a yacht - Look at the current AC sailors, and none of them ave gone from a Laser to an ACC design, they all had to progress through Finns, and some through Stars as well to get there.... Necessary stepping stones up the technology learning curve.

Redback, you sail a single handed skiff type boat, one of the RS's or maybe a Musto skiff, if I remember correctly. You may be happy that that is the pinnacle of your sailing career, the be all and end all, but for these athletes who, through the Olympics, are trying to further their career in competitive yacht racing, boats like Lasers, Sunfish, Optimists, RS 300's will never give them the skills they need to work their way into those other pinnacles of this sport.

Before you flame me, I have a Laser that I sail regularly, and I crew on 40+ foot racing yachts....

Yes, the knowledge gap between  Laser and Finn is so big that it can take almost a whole week to go from Laser sailor to a top 4 Finn sailor...and then almost a year to become world, pre-Olympic and European champ!

The Laser teaches you so little about tune that you can take about a season to go from national-level Laser sailor to world 505 champ...

I sailed a Finn once about 9 years ago.

It's a tub.

The only reason it's difficult to get the thing tuned correctly is because its so overweight and unresponsive that its difficult to notice when an adjustment hinders rather than helps. It's a 50 year old design, it's done its job, now can we move on please?

The only reason it is successful internationally is because it's the olympic class. If the Finn lost status to something like the RS300 then all that would happen is the Finn class would die very quickly and LDC would be in the money.

Apologies for the rant but it's a dreadful boat!

RS boats will never get to the olympics as they do not have ISAF status.  The list of all ISAF classes is here:  http://www.sailing.org/classes/classlist.asp?MenuID=d1v`GNcDgMI/qst7vTvONMY12`V - http://www.sailing.org/classes/classlist.asp?MenuID=d1v`GNcD gMI/qst7vTvONMY12`V (an olympic class must be one of these)

in summary the single handed ISAF classes are:  contender, europe, finn, laser, laser radial, laser 4.7, moth, OK, optimist, sunfish & topper.  best if week keep the conversation to these. 

Urm,,,,,,and A class cat :

http://www.sailing.org/classes/Information.asp?AssociationID=358&CodeDesc=358 - http://www.sailing.org/classes/Information.asp?AssociationID =358&CodeDesc=358

Sorry.  Good point, well made, but i was kind of assuming that we were sticking on the monohull route. 

Given current domestic markets, its pretty unlikely that many, if any, manufacturer is going to expand into 3 continents in a rush....

There has a be a case of chicken and egg here... if ISAF select a boat as an Olympic class, with manufacturer commitment to license/release moulds to other continents then we may have a way forward..... in the mean time, we are stuck with list detailing ISAF classes given by an earlier poster above... can anyone seriously imagine RS for example opening up manufacturing/marketing/support/etc on 2 new continents in a rush? It wouldn't be cheap or easy. I am sure that there will be domestic manufacturers in the Americas and AsiaPac with the exact same challenges.....

So maybe ISAF need to be smart in detailing EXACTLY what characteristics they want from a singlehander, and then look for the best boat in all domestic markets internationally, and work with relevant designer/manufacturer to develop its international availability...?  with sensible notice, there would be plenty of time for every nation to get up to speed on the chosen boat....