Topper Spice

Either big fleets or close racing are most peoples ideals,

Theres no point racing the top guys if you wont be able to keep up, that way big fleets are good as they normaly have all abilities covered (or there will always be people who make mistakes).

But for the top sailors good close tactical small fleet racing is equaly as good if not better.

that is the problem most people like big fleets

yer i think with the right marketing you can make a boat a sucsess or a failuare!!   the spice looks like a fun way to get into twin wires but there are some bad points about the boat!!

Originally posted by redback The difference between a Buz and a Spice is about 75 PY numbers - I would have thought you'd get the same.

The two cases are very different... With a pre rules change Cherub *with a sufficiently talented crew on board* in a strong breeze and flat water you've got downwind speed that is in the same sort of area as a 49er (source Y&Y from the 49er sailors who just pipped a Cherub for the Bloody Mary a couple of years back) and upwind speed in the FD region (source report on FD website). So you've got a theoretical optimum performance probably in the 800-850 region which is where the skiff seems to work out.

But its also a twelve foot boat so outside of the ideal range it suffers - in drifting conditions its just a Firefly plus a lot of wetted area so you won't beat a National 12 on the water for instance, and there are wave conditions where you can't drive the boat hard either. So the other end of the performance band for the 97-2004 boat is up around 1100. Other classes have wide ranges of performance in different conditions of course, one need only mention 420s, Fireballs and the like, but I've never tried to work out estimates for them. The PY returns for Cherubs recently have averaged this out into the 980s which seems to average out OK over a series.

So by adding a lot of extra rag what happens? Basically it means you're taking a hit on the strong win performance but a big increase in the moderate winds. This is where most sailing happens, so you'd expect it to have a big effect on the average. The Buzz/Spice design decisions by contrast mean thay have nothing like this soft of sparkle in the strong breezes, which probably makes it a more accessible boat for the beginner, but also means that similar sail area changes have a lot less effect on the average performance because there's a lot less potential there to be unlocked.

Ultimate performance comes of course from having different size rigs for different wind conditions like skiffs, sailboards and offshore racers. Really when you think about it having the same rag up in 3 knots and 30 is pretty silly, buit the sheet hassle of this makes it undesirable for most folk. Its not so much the money - OK you have to buy 3 rigs, but they last three times as long - but the sheer hassle of working out which rig to use, getting caught with the wrong rig when the weather changes and all that.

Originally posted by timnoyce i think that it's 820. but don't hold me to that one....

On the very limited data I had available last summer I guessed about 885. 820 was my guess the Cherub that's rigged with a 12ft skiff number two rig. Those guesses were based on last year's PY being accurate at 980 which probably wasn't unreasonable for latest spec boats. Pre '97 built boats don't get anywhere near 980 with even upgraded with the 97-2004 rig.

There's more info about now and other ways of interpreting it, so presumably the class association will be coming up with some advice for race officers - certainly sailing with the current published PY for a converted boat would be somewhat less than sportsmanlike.