Carbon Topmast for the Radial

Originally posted by a_stevo i fundamentaly dont understand why the laser should be updated. it exist as a strict one design class unchanges since inception(mostly) ans is succesful because of it. to go after a few percent of speed increase in a boat like this just dosent make sense. if people wanted to change their boats to suit their weight they wouldnt be sailing lasers.

You are missing the point; this is not about trying to make the boat go faster ...

It is about lowering the average weight to fit with the average woman ...

Rick

Sorry, I join this discussion late. It seems to me there are many misconceptions about CF masts.

I appears to be a forgone conclusion that a mast made from CF will automatically make the boat easier to sail for a light weight. Firstly, the laser is well known to require some weight to imerse some freeboard and thus increase to moment caused by hiking action..... this has nothing to do with the rig, its the hull. Secondly, on the subject of the rig, there is nothing which states a CF rig is more flexible. For a given weight, it is stiffer than Al, has a reduced range of flexing and beyond its modulus will behave brittley.

Performance can be gained with CF, because where an asymmetrical Al extrusion will twist under load, the CF version can deliver twist resistance (due to the weave's orientation) and so be built with considerable asymmetry. This translates into a spar which resists sideways bend while more readily bending fore-aft. This has limited value for the Laser Radial as Al top masts already allow the mast to be bent as far as possible (boom to the deck), and the sail is allready cut to give optimum leech tension at this point.

With this in mind I find it hard to believe a new mast without new sail can deliver anything different, and with these 2 amendments, can give lighter helms a level playing field over people of optimum weight.

It is extremely ironic that a class which was chosen for its none developable simplisity, is now, as part of the Olympic selected few, considering how to develop...... The curse of the Olympics strikes again.

JimC,

I follow your logic but the point of the carbon top mast is to lower the average so making the class better match the weight of an average fit woman.

Rick

It may not be a massive change; the guys on the Laser sailing forum who have used the rig indicate (there and when talking to them) that the lightweights have less of a disadvantage, but they don't actually gain an advantage. It's like the new rig controls, perhaps 80% of adult males don't really need them IMHO but they help the kids and women so therefore (as far as I can make out, anyway) they merely equalise the competition.

The change in the OD status seems to be OK because this does not really make Lasers faster, instead it removes a disadvantage suffered by lighter sailors. And the cost is OK, because it seems you'll pay about 220% more for a carbon mast but it shouldn't have the finite life of an alloy topmast (and the accompanying sail repairs). Assuming it's built like the Mistral IMCO carbon mast it will last for ever and a day.

Rick, the figure of 64kg may well be a US one; I didn't look too long but I ignored all the figures that were obviously US. It was surprisingly hard to find someone that was obviuously international quickly.

A fit 5'4" woman may not reach the ideal Radial weight. I suggest that they are in exactly the same position as a fit 5'7" guy who cannot reach the ideal big-rig weight.....it's a bummer but is there a perfect solution?

Interestingly in the Mistral, like all boards an incredibly weight-conscious class, the ideal weight range for women was distinctly different to the weight range for men who used the same gear. It was more important to weigh somewhere close to the middle of the fleet so you were consistently competitive, rather than being at a weight that may be faster overall but would leave you right at the back sometimes.

And before anyone says "you should sail development classes to avoid that", at least some of the top A Class, Moth and Formula guys have EXACTLY the same weight problem and they are hardly ODs......

PS - the fact that the Laser was designed as a "fun boat" is often thrown around to knock the boat. But the Finn is a very close relative of a Swedish cruiser-racer canoe which was designed for camping aboard, and it was designed by a hairdresser for home building. The Europe was never a top-class competitive Moth and was much slower than the Duflos and Shelleys of the time. The 470 was designed as a 505 sailor's retirement home. The Yngling was apparnetly designed as a kid's boat, the Star was a gaff rigged cheapie for LIS, the 49er is so "productionised" that some reckon it's not a real skiff........So a fast funboat designed by Olympians seems to be a good heritage by comparison.

If they want carbon why don't they just go back to the Europe where the carbon mast development and costs were starting to stabilise?

Just don't understand the need for change. I am not against it as such, but as has been said before this is quite a significant change to a one-design/out of the box/beach boat which now has the [mis]fortune to be a Youth Worlds and now Olympic class.