There were rumblings about introducing a carbon top mast to lower the competitive weight of the radial following its selection for the Olympic.

I thought this would be great as most "average" women are at the bottom of the recognised weight.

But in Andy Rices article it reports that there was not enough time to do this for 2008 ... would it really take that long to design, test and get enough manufactured?

Rick

They made a carbon top section a few yrs back for the fulrig boys to test.  I remember dave brooks using his older bro's (andy brooks) one at the radial transitional squad trials.  It snapped the wknd he used it, it didnt appear to have the right bend characteristics for use on the smaller radial lower section.  That was back in 2002 and i havnt seen another one since.  Although its been a while since ive been in lasers.

This is from the Laser website;

That figure of 64kgs seems a bit hight to me.

I found this;

That is 64kgs; so the global average is going to be considerably less that that - just think about Asian, Chinese and Indian women adding to the mix and you'll get a much lower figure.

A fit 5'4" woman is not going to weigh 64kgs ...

Rick

That was my original question ... if they think it is a good idea then why use a lame excuse like that?

Rick

errr .... what about the new controls; £150 it cost just for a new Harken kicker ... the class has adopted that pretty fast ...

I think at the top level the RC may have a little peek under the sail ...

The carbon mast would make it easire for smaller sailors to manage the radial what ever their level of ability

Because there arn't many of them about and fleet racing is more fun ...

errr .... what about the new controls; £150 it cost just for a new Harken kicker ... the class has adopted that pretty fast ...

With hindsight, I wouldn't have been in favour of that either, but at least that was an 'ease of use' change, not a performance one.  Changing the topmast is 'ease of use' for the smaller sailor, but at a disadvantage to those who are at the design weight.

I think at the top level the RC may have a little peek under the sail ...

You're probably right, but would it be that hard to trick them?

The carbon mast would make it easire for smaller sailors to manage the radial what ever their level of ability.

If you're too small for the boat, get something else.  Making it easier for lightweights is unfair on heavy weights.

Because there arn't many of them about and fleet racing is more fun ...

If people bought Bytes, then a fleet would develop!

P.S. I haven't worked out how to quote yet!

Use that button over the RHS that says "Quote"

I transferred from the Europe to the Radial and am not sure how much difference a carbon top section would make. Don't forget that at Worlds & Olympics you are given kit, so the shopping around then is irrelevant.

The biggest problem I have found with the transition is driving the heavier hull weight (the Laser hull is 10kg more than the Europe) through the waves by using my body action. I am not sure how much easier it would be with a carbon rig as you are still driving the same weight through the water.

At the moment a top section is just under £100 - will this cost be achievable with carbon?

Ah, yes.

Thanks!

The best place for more info on this is the laser forum, http://www.laserforum.org/ - http://www.laserforum.org/ .

A post on there seemed to indicate that the top section was at the brink of being sorted and ready to be implimented until on of the sections in Europe broke and sent them back to the drawing board. More than enough people have broken Al top sections in the past though...

I think moving to a carbon top section is a great idea. The competitive weight range is 65kg-72kg for the radial (77k-80kg for full rig) and I don't see any fit girls weighing 65kg unless they are 5'9"+ in height which is also pretty uncommon.

I am sure any woman who has gained weight deliberatly to sail a boat would be much happier without it ...

If they want carbon why don't they just go back to the Europe where the carbon mast development and costs were starting to stabilise?

Just don't understand the need for change. I am not against it as such, but as has been said before this is quite a significant change to a one-design/out of the box/beach boat which now has the [mis]fortune to be a Youth Worlds and now Olympic class.

There was no need for change until it became the womens Olympic boat - it cant be healthy for women to have to maintain their weight at a level above their natural weight to be competitive?

Rick

JimC,

I follow your logic but the point of the carbon top mast is to lower the average so making the class better match the weight of an average fit woman.

Rick

i fundamentaly dont understand why the laser should be updated. it exist as a strict one design class unchanges since inception(mostly) ans is succesful because of it.

to go after a few percent of speed increase in a boat like this just dosent make sense. if people wanted to change their boats to suit their weight they wouldnt be sailing lasers.

Sorry, I join this discussion late. It seems to me there are many misconceptions about CF masts.

I appears to be a forgone conclusion that a mast made from CF will automatically make the boat easier to sail for a light weight. Firstly, the laser is well known to require some weight to imerse some freeboard and thus increase to moment caused by hiking action..... this has nothing to do with the rig, its the hull. Secondly, on the subject of the rig, there is nothing which states a CF rig is more flexible. For a given weight, it is stiffer than Al, has a reduced range of flexing and beyond its modulus will behave brittley.

Performance can be gained with CF, because where an asymmetrical Al extrusion will twist under load, the CF version can deliver twist resistance (due to the weave's orientation) and so be built with considerable asymmetry. This translates into a spar which resists sideways bend while more readily bending fore-aft. This has limited value for the Laser Radial as Al top masts already allow the mast to be bent as far as possible (boom to the deck), and the sail is allready cut to give optimum leech tension at this point.

With this in mind I find it hard to believe a new mast without new sail can deliver anything different, and with these 2 amendments, can give lighter helms a level playing field over people of optimum weight.

It is extremely ironic that a class which was chosen for its none developable simplisity, is now, as part of the Olympic selected few, considering how to develop...... The curse of the Olympics strikes again.

You are missing the point; this is not about trying to make the boat go faster ...

It is about lowering the average weight to fit with the average woman ...

Rick

Chris249 - I think some people are missing the whole point of this proposal to ISAF ...

Rick

Isn't that the point discussed.....is this going off topic, or just not where you want it to Rick?

Agree, very well put!!!!

Changing the spec of a controlled component dosn't impact the OD factor. Just as the XD kit didn't.

Rick

PS Of course the Europe would have been better left in but the perception was that money brought medals which is of couse daft ...

So.......... even a finn Europe sailor will tell you the mast can only be bent so much. Consider, the top of the mast is more 'bendy', so its easier to bend to the maximum bent position..... how does this help a lighter weight in the laser. The light weights, are so as I explained, because they are not heavy enough to imerse the boat to a point where their weight is an effective counter.

I don't know where your leech (spelling) issue comes from... as I understood it, upwind (when your overpowered) the leech should be parallel to your direction. We all need to point, even small people. so?

I disagree; how often do you race a Laser?

I sail one every weekend over the winter and the guys without the XD controls are disadvantaged. They cant adjust the rig as easily and as such lose ground adjusting the kicker etc; With the old controls getting the kicker block to block was a real drama in a breeze; now it is easy - of course this has changed the character of the boat, in Bens book he talks about this ... have you read it?

Rick

Yes, but the mast is only proposed to shift the average weight down; nothing more. It's not a performance issue.

Rick

One thing I don't understand is why this debate only now it has become an Olympic class and not because it is also a female youth class. At youth level there is possibly more of an argument for reducing the optimum weight of a sailor, as an adult weight can be managed more easily.

Any thoughts?

I guess just because the class is now recieving more attention; as you point out it was a valid point prior to that ...

Possibly because the Powers That Be have woken up to the fact that the Radial as it stands was not actually a great choice for the average size of women worldwide, especially in Asia. 

This can do down as lesson 3 on "Why you don't really want your class to become Olympic".

Returning to whether a move to carbon would actually benefit lightweights, apart from bend characteristics, which Chris249 has covered very clearly, simply having a lighter mast will make the boat easier to sail, and more so for lightweights. This is because if the boat heels in a gust (which I suppose happens even to Olympians once in a while), a lighter mast makes it significantly easier to roll the boat flat again.

Robert Scheidt 8 times laser world champ still uses the old kicker system, it only makes a difference to the useability and the ability for people to use the controls effectively.they still get the same performance out of the boat at the top level notmatter what kicker they use!

all laser are doing is giving choice. all the systems work well, but its down to preference. i prefer the original xd to the new harken system for example. and there are plenty of ppl that sail with the really old 3:1 systems and still win!

and i dont see why we need to change the radial. its a good boat as it is and to bring the average weight down is just making it easier to sail, and isnt the olympics after all desgined to bring out the best sailor??? and whats the point in that if you constantly make the boat easier to sail???

and by the way, not all girls are 5"4!!! im 5"10.5 and i love my radial!!!!

That is a pretty chunky woman if she's average height ...

Sarah,

Given your own experiences would you welcome the change?

regards,

Rick

I dont know how to work the quotes but someone just said that lowering the weight limit just makes boats easier to sail.

I doubt they are introducing the carbon top section to make the lasers easier to sail, they are doing it to put the radial in the weight range of women. 

By introducing the top section they are making it possible for women to be more competitive in teh stronger stuff.  If British girls are having to put on wieght then it probably means that the smaller races (eg chinese) are not ever going to be heavy enough to make an impact on the fleet.  Is that fair for an olympic boat?  I think not.

And by allowing the sail to be depowered further does not make the boat easier to sail, as you have to know when to do it, and how to use  your controls in the new context.  Conversely more skill will be required in the light stuff from the heavier ones to race the light ones.

And 70kg is pretty heavy for an average women.  Although I may be biased as at 23 years old I am 5ft 6, 54kg and the ideal single handed boat for my weight is a topper.

I am not sure to be quite honest about the change to a carbon rig, as although less weight in the mast technically could make the boat easier to sail, the hull is still very heavy for the amount of sail area. Therefore more body actions are required to drive the boat through the waves, admittedly less so in flat water. I trained a couple of months ago with three awesome female sailors. Two about 70kg and one near my weight about 60-62kg. Some of the sailing was quite windy with big waves and admittedly I was rubbish but us lighter sailors really dropped off sideways sooner than the heavier sailors inspite of all the body actions.

Radial hull weight is nearly 60kg with a sail area of 5.76sqm contrast a Europe hull weight of about 45kg with a sail area of about 7sqm. There is quite a change in the dynamics of sailing such a boat.

A comment made above about about XD kit v. Scheidt not using XD kit is interesting. Even for a feeble person like me it is easy to put too much kicker on in the Radial and make the boat unbalanced if it is not counteracted with other sail controls. It is about using what is right for you as a sailor.

The main thing I would be concerned with about a carbon top section is cost. I have spent more in year one of Radial sailing for replacement kit than I think I did for year one in the Europe. The sails don't last as long, the top sections if you get a bad one bends really quickly, the fittings on the sections corrode quickly, and brand new foils are sometimes likely to be asymmetric when you get them (well my set were and I know others who suffered the same).

However one reason I have grown to tolerate the Radial is when you rock up to an international regatta or a club regatta you know that despite build discrepancies you are sailing the same boat as the next person, so to just get your head out of the boat and race.

I have really struggled in year one in my Radial, far more so than in my Europe, but the challenges have been different, so in many respects can the two boats be considered in the same light? The Olympics affects a select few, as do the Youth Worlds. The Laser was primarily designed as a beach boat and is now a victim of its own success. So can a technical, lightweight boat, be compared with a strict and essentially basic one-design? If you really want to sail at the Olympics and are good enough you will spend all hours in the gym and on the water almost irrespective of the boat.

Sorry Rick, rather a longer reply than perhaps you were expecting.

Elmo - go sail a Europe. One of my Europe chums was a similar weight to you and shorter and she has kit which still makes her go well.

Interesting and valid points but you didn't answer the question - would you like to see the carbon top mast introduced?

regards,

Rick

If the comments on the US laser forum are correct and it is thought $300 would be the price this is about £160. An alu top section is £100. As this will be a mass produced carbon topsection I query whether the quality control will be such to warrant the price increase.

I think until I have sailed with a carbon section I couldn't really say. But from a cost/quality issue, I would say stick with the strict one design we have rather than further lining Laser's pockets.

But changing the top mast to carbon dosn't impact the strict one-design concept; it's still one design but with different components; just like the XD.

The carbon one should last longer than the ally (wont bend or corrode) so in the long term it should be cheaper even if it is a bit more in the short term.

Has to be better for average women ...

Rick

Yes, but this change would affect more than just the 'average woman'.

I have chosen to sail this class now, so would more than likely go with the flow if the change were introduced. But it has to be remembered that think of all those clubs all over the world where the Radial is raced - is it really necessary for the good of the class or just the few women athletes? Are there any thoughts on that?

But the upshot is that it would change the class demographics.  This is not fair on those who have bought the boat because it suits them as it is.

I don't disagree that a carbon mast would be better, but so (arguably) would a fully battened sail, carbon hull and trapeze.  But then you've got yourself an MPS...

Well my wife is 55kgs and 5'5" and she is only interested in club racing and the carbon topmast would be great for her and she'd buy one despite the fact she has no Olympic aspirations - it would just make the boat better for her.

... and before you say it she dosn't want a Europe as there is a fleet of Lasers and no Europes.

regards,

Rick

PS - I am not sure she'd be happy that I put bher weight on this forum so sssshhh!!!

Surely even with a carbon top mast the main problem with the radial for lighter sailors is still going to be the hull weight?

Even with the radial rig, XD controlls and a lighter topmast the hull was still designed for someone in the full rig weight range and lighter sailers are still not going to be able to move the boat around as effectivley as heavier ones.

At club level, not everyone is going to change. So it does dilute the OD concept.The OD concept also includes not having to spend money to keep up with changes to the boat. It's a far more radical change than the kicker arrangement.

Isn't a topmast with different bend characteristics also going to mean a different sail as well? 

I have no view or any particular interest in whether this is a good or a bad change (although as a former Europe sailor I find it quite amusing) but I don't see how you can argue it is a minor change. 

I guess that is a matter of opinion; when I race the guys at our gravel pit in the winter the course has loads of marks because it's small which means lots to rig adjustments - the guys without XD end up sailing legs with the wrong settings because it's not worth changing for a short leg and are losing out ...

I don't know ...

I think it is the affect on the club level racing where I have the problem with the change. When I switched from a Europe to a Radial, i was told it was nice to see someone winning in a boat which was the same as everyone else's (rather than my fully sorted Europe). At grass roots a change in mast is a massive change.

And Rick, has your wife considered a 4.7? It is still a Laser which many forget for the lightweights irrespective of the fact it is also a 'junior' class.

She also has a 4.7 and uses that when it is windy (over about 18knots) but it's really dull down wind for her ... if she has a carbon top mast she could manage upwind then have the pleasure of a bigger sail downwind when it's breezy.

Rick

I think the probelm with the 4.7 is that then the sail is absolutely tiny compared to hte boat and you just dont go anywhere unless it is honking.

I think Rick is right, us light people would like to get upwind when it is windy and still speed downwind.  A previous person is right abou tthe hull wieght, when it is really light it is trickly to roll tack well as you have to have such extreme body movements if you dont weigh much, but I cant see what can be done about that and am sure that it has a great deal to do with good technique!

There are no europe fleet around, so the carbon mast makes the radial much better.  And remember all these problems with being light also apply to the small olympic competitors, a small chinese woman wanting to go to the olympics in a single hander cant just "go sail a europe"!

One thing to keep in mind is that Laser changed the radial sail a few years back. The radial rig has always been crap and it's nice to see it is being addressed.