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Heavy Weights vs Light Weights

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MpHarris View Drop Down
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    Posted: 28 Nov 07 at 10:42am
This may be where we're losing out, we tend to race with lots of short tacks up the beat and offwind its either a dead run with an assymetric or again lots of short gybes down to the mark . . .
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English Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 07 at 11:51am

Norby is dead right. Barty's eloquent maths assume that wind and waves are constants. Which has never happened in my lifetime. ( I also like the fact that 80kg represents the heavyweight - I wish). Acceleration out of tacks is crucial to upwind progress. Being stupidly overpowered isn't going to work but being at the lower part of the weight range for a particular boat does give advantage.

On the Ben Ainslie thing - is it not true that he is lighter than the "traditional" Finn sailor? Of course the guy's awesome downwind with all that wave-weaving but he also works it upwind to compensate for his lack (relatively) of bulk.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Barty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 07 at 12:24pm
Originally posted by English Dave

Barty's eloquent maths assume that wind and waves are constants. Which has never happened in my lifetime.

Just trying to point out simply that extra weight doesn't always make a huge difference to hull drag compared with the potential gains from the righting moment

Originally posted by English Dave

( I also like the fact that 80kg represents the heavyweight - I wish).

I generally coach kids so 80kg is at the heavy end

Originally posted by English Dave

On the Ben Ainslie thing - is it not true that he is lighter than the "traditional" Finn sailor? Of course the guy's awesome downwind with all that wave-weaving but he also works it upwind to compensate for his lack (relatively) of bulk.

This goes back to alot of people thinking that because they are below/above the 'ideal' weight for their boat, they will be slow.  Ben may be less bulky but he has textbook consistent technique and knows in his own mind that he can beat them all!

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 07 at 12:35pm
Originally posted by Barty

Just trying to point out simply that extra weight doesn't always make a huge difference to hull drag compared with the potential gains from the righting moment

You're assuming that waterplane area doesn't change with the extra immersion. On the flatter boats it can increase spectacularly.

Originally posted by MpHarris

we tend to race with lots of short tacks up the beat


Its worth noting that 10kg is a far bigger percentage increase in total mass (thus reducing acceleration) on a Cherub than say a GP14... Also modern Cherubs take a *lot* of practice to get roll tacks and gybes working properly. I think in the last few years I was sailing them only Alex and I had really got them down half decently.

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Barty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 07 at 12:58pm
True but my main assumption is that it is more in the mind than in physics!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Quote RyanV49er Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 07 at 5:15pm

What about the average amount of wind in the UK, compared to some of the european Olympic venues.  The last two times I sailed at Palma in the 49er, we had one breezy day and 5 sub 10 knot days, same for Hyeres and Kiel.  Perhaps being lighter benefits you as you can expect more light wind races.

Another thing I've found on the circuit is that sailors have heavy and light harnesses for different wind strengths.  I personally see this as gamesmanship (you are allowed a harness up to 2kg in weight), but most of the guys do it.



Edited by RyanV49er
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Post Options Post Options   Quote m_liddell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Nov 07 at 7:20pm
An aside, but I think being light for a boat often makes you a better sailor out of necessity. Better hiking style, flat wiring, faster out on the wire out of tacks etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 07 at 9:24am

Originally posted by m_liddell

An aside, but I think being light for a boat often makes you a better sailor out of necessity. Better hiking style, flat wiring, faster out on the wire out of tacks etc.

I don't think it's an aside at all. I think it's central to what makes lighter sailors faster.

Balls! I've just rembered someone who kills all my theories. Richard Stenhouse!

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Barty View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Barty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 07 at 1:27pm

Originally posted by JimC

You're assuming that waterplane area doesn't change with the extra immersion. On the flatter boats it can increase spectacularly.

I thought about this and did a few rough and ready calc's to see if that true. 

Imagine 2 boats that are 4m long, 2m wide and 0.5m deep.  Both have constant section along there length (see assumptions/disclaimer at the end) to make the lunch time maths easier.  Both boats weigh 150kgs all up and the crew weigh 160kg all up.  One is box section the other is round bilged

The box sections draft would be 2.2cm in salt water and the round bilge would be 9.5cm, nothing revolutionary there.  The STATIC wetted surface area (WSA) is 8.04m2 for the box and 4.52m2 for the bilge

Now if both crew members ate the pie diet and put on 100kgs between them the draft would be as follows:

So for the box section the draft has increased by 127% (2.8cm) and the bilge has increased by 26% (2.5cm).  The interesting bit is WSA, the box has increased by 0.7% whilst the bilge by 12.6%.

So by eloquent and logical deduction, box type craft, i.e. little or no rocker, large flat planning surfaces can carry weight better as the WSA doesn't increase greatly as it is already high (hence high drag as sub-planning speeds).  Where as round bilge or tradional designs suffer higher WSA's as weight increases and hence more frictional resistance as weight increases.

Assumption/Disclaimer

  • No account has been taken for waves, wind, atmospheric pressure, the seagull to sky ratio, the ambient temperature of the water, whether the tree surrounding the water have leafs on them, whether the sailors are carrying clean hankies or answer to the name of Susan
  • These calculations took place during a lunchtime thought shower and as such should not be used in anyway other than those intended.  The author reserves the right to provide any user with a 5p per litre discount during the promotion of these calculation (terms and conditions apply) but can and will withdraw the offer without notice.
  • The boats used in the calculations are not real and as such should not be taken as a "recognised design" any forum member who willing choses to build and race a craft of identical/similar proportions shall have no claim against the author following disappointing results, soiling or spoiling of any sailing gear or ridicule.
  • The author assumes and expects that 'armchair' dinghy designers will criticise, neh, mock these calulations
  • Finally the author denies any involvement with the above and is currently under going an interview for MI5 to go and play briefcases in Russia

The end



Edited by Barty
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Norbert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Norbert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Nov 07 at 2:09pm
Originally posted by Barty

Assumption/Disclaimer
  • No account has been taken for waves, wind, atmospheric pressure, the seagull to sky ratio, the ambient temperature of the water, whether the tree surrounding the water have leafs on them, whether the sailors are carrying clean hankies or annswer to the name of Susan
And you can't spell "answer"!!


Edited by Norbert
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