Laser 140101 Tynemouth |
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Rossiter Pintail Mortagne sur Gironde, near Bordeaux |
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Laser 28 - Excellent example of this great design Hamble le rice |
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List classes of boat for sale |
Heavy Weights vs Light Weights |
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MpHarris ![]() Posting king ![]() ![]() Joined: 09 Jun 07 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 141 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 28 Nov 07 at 10:42am |
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This may be where we're losing out, we tend to race with lots of short tacks up the beat and offwind its either a dead run with an assymetric or again lots of short gybes down to the mark . . .
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Cherub 2663 "Sweet Dreams"
RS400 451 "IceBerg" |
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English Dave ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 06 Location: Northern Ireland Online Status: Offline Posts: 682 |
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Norby is dead right. Barty's eloquent maths assume that wind and waves are constants. Which has never happened in my lifetime. ( I also like the fact that 80kg represents the heavyweight - I wish). Acceleration out of tacks is crucial to upwind progress. Being stupidly overpowered isn't going to work but being at the lower part of the weight range for a particular boat does give advantage. On the Ben Ainslie thing - is it not true that he is lighter than the "traditional" Finn sailor? Of course the guy's awesome downwind with all that wave-weaving but he also works it upwind to compensate for his lack (relatively) of bulk. |
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Barty ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 240 |
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Just trying to point out simply that extra weight doesn't always make a huge difference to hull drag compared with the potential gains from the righting moment
I generally coach kids so 80kg is at the heavy end
This goes back to alot of people thinking that because they are below/above the 'ideal' weight for their boat, they will be slow. Ben may be less bulky but he has textbook consistent technique and knows in his own mind that he can beat them all! |
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JimC ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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You're assuming that waterplane area doesn't change with the extra immersion. On the flatter boats it can increase spectacularly.
Its worth noting that 10kg is a far bigger percentage increase in total mass (thus reducing acceleration) on a Cherub than say a GP14... Also modern Cherubs take a *lot* of practice to get roll tacks and gybes working properly. I think in the last few years I was sailing them only Alex and I had really got them down half decently. Edited by JimC |
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Barty ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 240 |
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True but my main assumption is that it is more in the mind than in physics!!!
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RyanV49er ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() Joined: 28 Oct 07 Online Status: Offline Posts: 217 |
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What about the average amount of wind in the UK, compared to some of the european Olympic venues. The last two times I sailed at Palma in the 49er, we had one breezy day and 5 sub 10 knot days, same for Hyeres and Kiel. Perhaps being lighter benefits you as you can expect more light wind races. Another thing I've found on the circuit is that sailors have heavy and light harnesses for different wind strengths. I personally see this as gamesmanship (you are allowed a harness up to 2kg in weight), but most of the guys do it. Edited by RyanV49er |
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Online sailing: For when you just can't get to the club:
Visser49erracing |
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m_liddell ![]() Really should get out more ![]() Joined: 27 May 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 583 |
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An aside, but I think being light for a boat often makes you a better sailor out of necessity. Better hiking style, flat wiring, faster out on the wire out of tacks etc.
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English Dave ![]() Really should get out more ![]() ![]() Joined: 10 Aug 06 Location: Northern Ireland Online Status: Offline Posts: 682 |
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I don't think it's an aside at all. I think it's central to what makes lighter sailors faster. Balls! I've just rembered someone who kills all my theories. Richard Stenhouse! |
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Barty ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 16 Mar 04 Location: Scotland Online Status: Offline Posts: 240 |
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I thought about this and did a few rough and ready calc's to see if that true. Imagine 2 boats that are 4m long, 2m wide and 0.5m deep. Both have constant section along there length (see assumptions/disclaimer at the end) to make the lunch time maths easier. Both boats weigh 150kgs all up and the crew weigh 160kg all up. One is box section the other is round bilged The box sections draft would be 2.2cm in salt water and the round bilge would be 9.5cm, nothing revolutionary there. The STATIC wetted surface area (WSA) is 8.04m2 for the box and 4.52m2 for the bilge Now if both crew members ate the pie diet and put on 100kgs between them the draft would be as follows: So for the box section the draft has increased by 127% (2.8cm) and the bilge has increased by 26% (2.5cm). The interesting bit is WSA, the box has increased by 0.7% whilst the bilge by 12.6%. So by eloquent and logical deduction, box type craft, i.e. little or no rocker, large flat planning surfaces can carry weight better as the WSA doesn't increase greatly as it is already high (hence high drag as sub-planning speeds). Where as round bilge or tradional designs suffer higher WSA's as weight increases and hence more frictional resistance as weight increases. Assumption/Disclaimer
The end Edited by Barty |
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Norbert ![]() Far too distracted from work ![]() ![]() Joined: 31 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 351 |
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![]() Edited by Norbert |
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