I've been thinking for a while and i think that it is better to be underweight in the majority of classes than it is to be overweight.  As far as i can tell lightweights are better in the light stuff and heavies in the heavy, however with the vast amount of controls available on most modern dinghies you are able to depower very effectively.  This surely means that lightweights will have a much greater advantage in the light and be competing on an even plain in anything but the heaviest of weathers.

This isn't a gripe about anything i'm just really interested in peoples thoughts, what are everyone elses experiences and are there any ways to power up a boat for the heavies in the light stuff?

well i cant help but think that i could do with more lard in the boat to keep the 600 down in the heavy stuff. but i suspect that has a lot to do with lazyness (its too much hassle dropping the mast to reef), and even more to do with lack of boat handling skills (just a matter of time). but in the light stuff i think there isn't much disadvantage as a heavier guy can get the bow further down and the transom further out without being very precariously balanced on the foredeck, and hence likely to capsize.

also with high performance boats the perception of heavy winds changes, in the laser i would happily have gone out in 20 knots, at 30 knots i'd still be out but with the 4.7 on. but with the 600, 20 knots is starting to seem silly and 30 knots is suicidal. so i think that a lightweight struggles more of the time in a high performance boat which doesnt have very much string (like the 600, with 3 bits of string, as opposed to say a 14 where you can tweak everything). however in a normal dinghy, an ent or a laser, you can get away with being light by hiking harder because they get to a certain level of sillyness then its just a matter of keeping the goddam thing flat. whereas ith a faster boat when it gets widnier things happen more quickly, sooner, if that makes sense.

im going to shut up now because i think im rambling.

i agree with m_liddell,

in the lighter stuff lightweights, generally do better HOWEVER, this is alos dependant on class as i know in my rs300 in light stuff i do not have enough weight to lift the transom out of the water properly.

in medium winds i think the lightweights rule again, we plane faster, are generally more agile (i mean on average, not aimed at anyone so no offense to heavy people who are also agile.).

BUT when we start depowering we lose out upwinds as where the heavies can hold the power, we have to lose it AND increase drag due. but downwind it makes very little difference.

When everyone is depowering it is down to pure skill, teamwork and good boat handling.

but it would be interesting to hear some of the heavier people views who think they are better off.

You have to remember that the 400 class is very competitive but also that if you sail inland your better off being lighter.

A big factor as to how much difference it makes of course, is to do with the weight of the boat itself, and the boats ability to carry your weight (i.e. its bouyancy).

In a short, light boat (like your Cherub), you'll find that 20Kg difference in crew wight makes a huge difference in the light stuff, whereas in something like a Laser 5000 it'll have much less effect a) because the boat is heavier to start with so the additional weight is a much smaller percentage of the overall sailing weight, and b) because it's long and can carry the extra weight easily without "bogging down".

This is why typically the shorter and lighter the boat, the greater the effect it has ,unless of course you're lucky enough to have the ability to simply throw a bigger rig on to compensate (but even then it's still a dis-advantage being heavier, but to a far lesser degree).

In the higher performance boats I have noticed it certainly pays to be on the light side. 

Generally speaking the rigs are very adjustable and can be depowered upwind.  In addition with light crews they get on the plane at lower wind speeds.  In higher wind speeds they plane faster if lighter. Finally the high performance boats generally have very little rocker which means they drag their transoms easily and don't easily lift them out of the water when trimmed by the bow.

One more thing, in high performance boats the downwid speed is more important to overal postion than with other boats and this is just where the lightwieghts score.  Consequently I'm on a diet.

i think in almost every instance, its much easier to depower, than generate more (legal!) power in your rig and so its better to be light. It does mean that the heavy people can go flat out for longer but the benefits are gained downwind too if you are light. If you're too light, then yes, your performance is hindered but a small proportion lighter than your opposition is usually an advantage.

if its a shifty up and down day, then it generally favours the lighter teams that can keep moving through the lighter patches - in the windy areas, they dont lose as much as the heavier teams do when they are sat in the boat, whilst the light guys are fully powered up.

On the average puddle with an average lot of club sailors sailing boats where you actually go on runs, I would have to agree with PB. The difference between getting it right upwind and getting it wrong is far greater than on a downwind leg going straight from one mark to another. If gybing downwind, it will be much more even, and playing the waves (Ben A style) on the sea will even things up, too.

 As for the weight thing, do the heavyweights on the forum think it is better to be light, and the lightweights heavy? Personally, I'm pretty light, and oddly enough I get blown away when the wind picks up, and the heavyweights loose out in the light stuff. Sailing skill seems to make rather more difference, though...

Originally posted by getafix Originally posted by Prince Buster An edge in speed downwind never ever compensates for a lack of speed upwind.  Upwind speed is way more important that's where races are won and lost. someone ought to tell that Finn sailing guy....  Ben Ainslie about that!

he said "edge" ... Ben seemd to have somwhat more than an edge ...

Just some thoughts

Take 2 sailors, 60kg and 80kg sailing the same boat with a water plane area of 3m2

The extra 20 kg would make the boat sink 6mm more

Assuming the centre of mass of each sailor is 1.5m from the centre of the boat (when hiking)

The righting moment for the 60kg sailor would be 882 Nm

The righting moment for the 80kg sailor would be 1176 Nm

So the 20kg adds 33% more righting moment for 6mm draft.

In very light conditions the 6mm may make a difference to hull drag but the extra righting moment would more than offset the addition of drag as the wind strength builds.

It is more likely that heavier sailors have in their heads that lighter sailors will go quicker!!!!

Norby is dead right. Barty's eloquent maths assume that wind and waves are constants. Which has never happened in my lifetime. ( I also like the fact that 80kg represents the heavyweight - I wish). Acceleration out of tacks is crucial to upwind progress. Being stupidly overpowered isn't going to work but being at the lower part of the weight range for a particular boat does give advantage.

On the Ben Ainslie thing - is it not true that he is lighter than the "traditional" Finn sailor? Of course the guy's awesome downwind with all that wave-weaving but he also works it upwind to compensate for his lack (relatively) of bulk.

Just trying to point out simply that extra weight doesn't always make a huge difference to hull drag compared with the potential gains from the righting moment

I generally coach kids so 80kg is at the heavy end

This goes back to alot of people thinking that because they are below/above the 'ideal' weight for their boat, they will be slow.  Ben may be less bulky but he has textbook consistent technique and knows in his own mind that he can beat them all!

What about the average amount of wind in the UK, compared to some of the european Olympic venues.  The last two times I sailed at Palma in the 49er, we had one breezy day and 5 sub 10 knot days, same for Hyeres and Kiel.  Perhaps being lighter benefits you as you can expect more light wind races.

Another thing I've found on the circuit is that sailors have heavy and light harnesses for different wind strengths.  I personally see this as gamesmanship (you are allowed a harness up to 2kg in weight), but most of the guys do it.

I don't think it's an aside at all. I think it's central to what makes lighter sailors faster.

Balls! I've just rembered someone who kills all my theories. Richard Stenhouse!

I thought about this and did a few rough and ready calc's to see if that true. 

Imagine 2 boats that are 4m long, 2m wide and 0.5m deep.  Both have constant section along there length (see assumptions/disclaimer at the end) to make the lunch time maths easier.  Both boats weigh 150kgs all up and the crew weigh 160kg all up.  One is box section the other is round bilged

The box sections draft would be 2.2cm in salt water and the round bilge would be 9.5cm, nothing revolutionary there.  The STATIC wetted surface area (WSA) is 8.04m2 for the box and 4.52m2 for the bilge

Now if both crew members ate the pie diet and put on 100kgs between them the draft would be as follows:

So for the box section the draft has increased by 127% (2.8cm) and the bilge has increased by 26% (2.5cm).  The interesting bit is WSA, the box has increased by 0.7% whilst the bilge by 12.6%.

So by eloquent and logical deduction, box type craft, i.e. little or no rocker, large flat planning surfaces can carry weight better as the WSA doesn't increase greatly as it is already high (hence high drag as sub-planning speeds).  Where as round bilge or tradional designs suffer higher WSA's as weight increases and hence more frictional resistance as weight increases.

Assumption/Disclaimer

• No account has been taken for waves, wind, atmospheric pressure, the seagull to sky ratio, the ambient temperature of the water, whether the tree surrounding the water have leafs on them, whether the sailors are carrying clean hankies or answer to the name of Susan
• These calculations took place during a lunchtime thought shower and as such should not be used in anyway other than those intended.  The author reserves the right to provide any user with a 5p per litre discount during the promotion of these calculation (terms and conditions apply) but can and will withdraw the offer without notice.
• The boats used in the calculations are not real and as such should not be taken as a "recognised design" any forum member who willing choses to build and race a craft of identical/similar proportions shall have no claim against the author following disappointing results, soiling or spoiling of any sailing gear or ridicule.
• The author assumes and expects that 'armchair' dinghy designers will criticise, neh, mock these calulations
• Finally the author denies any involvement with the above and is currently under going an interview for MI5 to go and play briefcases in Russia

The end

Hmmm, I think you made a mistake somewhere.

The draught of th box section with 160kg crew weight is 39mm (in fresh water), increasing to 51mm for the heavier crew.  These equate to WSA of 8.468m^2 and 8.612m^2 respectively, which is an increase 0.144m^2, or 1.7%.

I did a triangle rather than a circle (cos it was easier!) and the draught is 78mm increasing to 102.5mm.  WSA is 8.332m^2 increasing to 8.452m^2 - an increase of 0.12m^2, or 1.4%.  So the trianglular section is 'better' (from a WSA weight sensitivity perspective) than the box section, which is as you would expect (as the waterplane area increases with draught).  However increasing waterplane area (and waterline beam) introduces its own problems...

And, of course, you have to consider the juxtoposition of Jupiter with Venus.

Agree, massively class dependant.

Fireball, Adam Whitehouse and Mike Pratt...both of these guys are big (Mike's huge, well over 6 foot) and they FLY in the light stuff when they have no reason to.  That said, with Mike "the lever" on the wire when it's windy and they fly too!

Tom V and I are too heavy for a Cherub in the light stuff and we get crucfied.  To the extent we don't even bother going out.  However big breeze we will be fully powering the 2005 rig when other lightweights are spilling their 97s, and getting Suicide Blonde going faster than much newer craft.