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combat wombat View Drop Down
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Posts: 345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote combat wombat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 2 Man Boat for Fatties
    Posted: 16 Mar 06 at 2:53pm
12 knots uphill is called a misreading GPS, not actual speed.  Thats A-Class Cat territory.  And 14 knots downwind is not that fast, I clocked that in my Vareo with a bit of pushing.  B14's reach 18-20 knots downwind in breeze.

The comment on the hull shape, whilst I will agree that it was designed in 1984 (as old as me), it is very fair and planes easily.  It is impossible to say that the 59er has such a better design to the point that it can make up for less sail area, less righting moment and extra weight.  I will concede that the B14 is slow in the light, but I haven't ever seen a 59er sailing so I can't comment if it is better. 

I still think it is difficult to question the sails - your comment that North haven't been making laminated sails as long as Pryde's is rediculous.  Even if they haven't, they have a load more experience of it, and this is unquestionable.  They make the sails for all the fast yachts and win everything. You say reasonably priced, but we aren't talking about prices. 


B14 GBR 772
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Shingle View Drop Down
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Posts: 111 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Shingle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Mar 06 at 9:50am

Originally posted by damp_freddie


It'll take time  to establish itself -with or hopefully without a trapeze

Unfortunately time is not enough, it needs eager people. The boats seem like a risk to anyone buying new as there's no Class activity. With no CA to push things along it will be an uphill struggle. So do you buy one to enjoy exciting handicap racing? We did and don't regret it, but it would be nice to have the option of an open meeting if we wanted.

I think the way the MPS has grown is fantastic and a credit to the few that put in the effort. Maybe some keen soul will do the same for the 59er, but the initial difference is there are fewer boats out there. If a trapeze option keeps it alive I'm not going to object.
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russell View Drop Down
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Posts: 68 		Post Options Post Options   Quote russell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 06 at 11:02pm


But not on my shopping list until a class develops, which  will take some re-marketing (positioning) and a price drop IMHO

Second generation 59er owners now coming through - me included.  I am hoping to see some events shared with the 9er fleet this year, I will certainly go if they hold them and DH is hoping they will. Second hand prices are now coming down but are still above old rs400's b14s etc, but then that makes it a good investment in my book.  I have heard a lot of myths about 59er pricing, its virtually the same as an rs400. Comparing dinghy show prices there was £500 between the 2.  One person at the show had thought that the 59er was over 10k and this is rubbish
Russell

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damp_freddie View Drop Down
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Posts: 339 		Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 06 at 9:09pm
Originally posted by combat wombat

The idea that the 59er is for bigger crews is a myth
- 140kgs minimum recommended weight by Ovingtons (thats two 11 stone people).  


Target payload is around 180kg with a range down to 150....Bethwaite design and other 'myths' vombat?

Makes  it  fit over the   max sensible for  the laser 4000, B14 etc while not punishing heavy crews in the light as in the RS400

The fact it 'is' being sailed by lighter crews, with less 'lever' and early depowering probably corresponds to  your observation:

Originally posted by combat wombat

It is a country mile faster than a 59er

 



Not the experience in  aus'-  up to 12 knts up hill and  14kn off wiind they  hold their own. In sub 7 knts the  59er is faster. It's called progress in hull design.

As for the faith in Prydes, well they  have been  making reasonably priced  mylar panel sails a lot  longer  than north and hyde .

Quite a   lot  comfier than a 4000, 400 or B14 in my experience and the simpler  handling than winged, bagged boats will make it  fun in short courses and have an appeal to  a wider range of sailors, especially if your average wind is say 9 knts in the season

It'll take time  to establish itself -with or hopefully without a trapeze
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Posts: 111 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Shingle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 06 at 10:27am
Sorry I stand corrected, yes I have seen 28 stone near a B14, when the lads had a 'pull a pig' comp!
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Posts: 111 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Shingle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 06 at 10:26am

Originally posted by combat wombat

And on that point - the B14 is a two man hiking boat that does remain competitive with up to about 28 stone in it.

Just Keep taking the Tablets, I've never seen 28stone near a B14, and if there's one on the circuit I'll go to the next open to see how well they do! Maybe in an F6-7 but less than that and they'd be left for dead.
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bovlike View Drop Down
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Posts: 221 		Post Options Post Options   Quote bovlike Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 06 at 9:46am

Sorry but 140kg for a 59er would not be fast. When I won the nats in 2004 with Adam Ovington we were 165kg and we were getting blown away by bigger guys up wind in anything more than a f3. but we were faster down wind so maybe 160 to 170 would be about optimum.

 I dont sail the boat now but it is so under rated, really enjoyed the 59er best thing to do is go for a test sail in one.

Cant hurt to give it a go (well only you legs from the hiking) 
Ian (Bov) Turnbull
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combat wombat View Drop Down
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Posts: 345 		Post Options Post Options   Quote combat wombat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Mar 06 at 8:37am

The idea that the 59er is for bigger crews is a myth - 140kgs minimum recommended weight by Ovingtons (thats two 11 stone people).  So fair enough its not for girls but it isnt for fat b-stards as well.  It is marketed as the skiff for older people, it doesnt have the sail area to make it a truly good weight carrier.   

I'd doubt that it could be classed as a skiff as well! 

Freddie, claiming that Neil Pryde makes better sails that Hyde (for the 400) isnt really for you to say - Hyde make excellent sails, just because the 9ers use Prydes does not make them better!   Give me a set of Norths over Prydes anyday (on my B14 I wouldn't sail with anything other than Norths).

And on that point - the B14 is a two man hiking boat that does remain competitive with up to about 28 stone in it.  It is a country mile faster than a 59er and there are loads more of them around, with a well organised class association and lots of racing (International Class!).  People moan about it not having a chute for the kite, but it makes you a bigger man having to pack the kite (good training for the 18ft Skiff) and it really isnt that difficult!

 

 
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damp_freddie View Drop Down
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Posts: 339 		Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 06 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by limey

 The introduction of a single trapeze to the 59 er is about to discount that which is certainly in iits present form still not a boat for heavvyweights. The main and jib sail area is smaller than that of the 400 and significantly flatter. Only the spinny is a decent size. The fact remains that if you are an average size Finn or Phantom helm, or a 505,Osprey,FD, Javelin etc etc crew you will not find a modern two man hiker (without a piece of lead under it) capable of carrying 25-30 stone competitively. And if you dont think this applies to you and you are over 6ft; wait and see what happens when you turn 40 !!!!!


this is just misleading.  The 59er is a lot ligher than the rather  heavy  4000 and has a far better hull shape which is both very low drag to plane and has the right rocker too move in light airs .

The sails are cut to be very efficient and low drag, and I bet Neil Pryde and JB-FB put more thought into this than say the RS 400 or laser 4000.

It is a fairly demanding boat to sail  but rewards the concentration  with what I'd say is stunning performance, esp in  light winds. If you generally sail in up to 20knts it  is a great boat for you. If you sail  in usually light winds where you are then  it is a fantastic boat to sail.

But not on my shopping list until a class develops, which  will take some re-marketing (positioning) and a price drop IMHO

BTW The tasar will tolerate a wider weight range than you might imagine- Neil Spacanga kicked but with  a heavy team
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Blobby View Drop Down
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Posts: 779 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Blobby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Mar 06 at 11:11am

Mr swiftsolo.org - you say you're in Brisbane???? I'm in Bris from now till March 13th - fancy meeting up for a beer?

PM me if it sounds like a plan.

CHeers.
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