What about a flying fifteen?don't know what their optimum is but I know there are some heavyish crews on them

Ooops missed the lightweight hull part!!

I think les5269 has hit something there.  Granted, there doesnt appear to be any hiking dinghy/skiffs for the larger crew weights, but aside from that theres a really good small keelboat racing scene.  Flying fifteen a good one, especially if you're anywhere near hayling island, i seem to remember there being a fair few of them there.  Or another good one would be the Rsk6, ive seen it racing and it looks really nice, has a good national circuit and would hold ur weight quite nicely.
Otherwise for dinghys, you could force your crew out on the wire and get an osprey (seems to hold weight very well) but then if hikings what u want then that wont be for you.

I know you said don't BUT....

I recently went through a similar process, looking for a 2 person boat that will carry my 94kg as a helm, I also didn't want trapezes because I sail on a smallish lake and will often have novice crews.  I did settle on the 59er cos it met all of these, looks nice and secondhand prices have now dropped enough to justify as a second boat.  Not really noticed it being underpowered upwind, we had 200kg in it last weekend and both of us sat on the side in a 2-3.  If the sail was fuller it probably would have more power but would you then cope without a trapeze?  Which if you look at other threads on this forum you will see people have fitted.

I have previously owned an RS400, it didn't light my candle, maybe as you say kite too small, and the crew has to work quite hard, separate pole hoist etc is tedious.

Sailed 505's for years and they are a fantastic boat but no good for me now on the lake.

So I think where you sail plays a big part in the decision making process.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the B14 yet.

Excellent boat, and I believe it can carry some pies. Also non-trapeze.It has a big, sophisticated rig, and a light efficient hull.

Also an excellent class with a good international following. Check out the fin and games at the worlds.

but you didn't ask for high performance

 the B14  is a good option tho,and the fifteen may not have a light hull but it has a huge following with racing at most clubs capable of holding them

the SB3 has a really big fleet now and they look good fun to sail and if you are slity to hevey you just have 2 people in them insted of 3

or why dont you just get an 18 and sail it 2 up so its just like a 49er for big people

yes got my 500 posts

I think you need to have another go, you can overdo the control lines and kill the rig. What were the wind strengths and how heavy are you? We're 25st and generally have ample power. In a 2-3 we can keep pace on the water with well sailed 800s, above that they rocket away, but downwind you go deeper and hence make up some ground. Perhaps you've saw the marketing and thought they were easy to sail!

Could we define what we mean by a boat for heavy weights.

When people are talking about 25 st in a boat I presume they are talking about a single-hander ( or at most an adult and child boat!)

30 stone is only 190.44 kilos... is that heavy? In rugby terms that would be 2 modern centres sailing together! As an ex-second row (not very good), I would consider that a heavy weight boat should cater for 2 front five rugby players (front and second row) say twice 115/120 kilos. That gives a crew weight of some 230/240 kilos - 36/39 st. If you can find a third person light enough (can go down to the leeward side) you could sail a Dragon or an Etchells.

I have been convinced for many years that it is ISAF policy to transform sailing into a sport for children, dwarfs and anorexics. Could it be that it is this trend that contributes to the slow decline of dinghy sailing. As each generation becomes bigger (and unfortunately fatter) but stays fit and active far longer, surely it is time to start catering for the larger sailor.

Hiking fleets that provide quality tactical racing can attract more mature, experienced sailors...take a look at an International Snipe event (or, dare I say it the Ents/GPs, Wayfarers/Squibs... a public that may well not be attracted to a two-wire flying machine. It is surely time to provide them with a suitable boat!

Gordon

Gordon

5420 - I presume you were talking about the National 18 not the low-flying light aircraft the Aussies race!

Gordon

no gordan i was tyalking about the 18 foot skiffs

but i dont think it would be as bad as people think iv heard of people doing it befor and when you think about it its just a big 5000 it would not be that bad it would be good fun in light winds to

I made this mistake, boy did I get a shock, but then its no fun if its too easy.  I was swimming 3 boat lengths off the shore the first time I sailed mine. 

I ruled out the B14 because of the bag launched kite, the fact that I would have to get a crew under 11 stone and also they don't really compete in light airs at all - you see the crews right up on the bows - and with my bulk at the back there would be no point.  I also think it would just be too fast on our lake.  There was one last season and I don't think I ever saw them with the kite up.

Being a big chap myself I have found that their are very few modern (ish) dinghies that cope with my weight. I have sailed the 59er and loved it, but it is fair to say that they can be tricky to keep under the mast. The 4k is a nice boat, but I'm to heavy to trapeze off that mast, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, that is where you want the weight.

I spent the weekend sailing a friends 5k and loved every minute of it. It may be a heavy old beast with a horrible bag for the genny, but for a big crew it is ideal.

Speaking as an ex-fatty there could be another issue. When I was 15.5 stone+ I was also bleedin clumsy and found crewing a B14 with my skinny brother really uncomfortable.

I think we need to define what sort of weight we're talking about: A, average build with lots of padding or B, large build with less padding. It makes a difference because if you are in category A and sail a high performance boat for long enough you will become just average build and may find you're lighter than you'd like for the boat.

Sail area is no the ony factor in determining whether it will carry weight - yes it has slightly less upwind sail area than an RS400 (0.5m2) BUT it has a significantly higher aspect rig and for me a more effective use of beam. The shape of the rig also helps the upwind performance, it does look odd looking at flat sails but it seems to work.  Its also 10kg lighter than a 400. I used to own a 400 and for me the 400 feels like a conventional boat with an asymetric rig, the 59er is a skiff. In the 400 I spent a lot of time on set up, making sure kicker tension is right etc to get the best out of it.  The 59er rig is more simple, its 100% about technique and not about fiddling with string.

There is nothing wrong with not liking a particular boat for what ever reason, but I don't think its fair to say that the 59er won't carry weight.  It does after all have a minimum combined crew weight of 150kg, below which I believe you are required to carry lead showing that it is not aimed at light crews.

Sorry forgot to mention I am 37, 6ft and beat all the other asymetrics at the London boat show pursuit this weekend (ok except Geoff Carveth in the RS200 but does that count??) with 26.5 stone in the boat, winds varying from 0 - 18 knots, and kite up for less than 10% of the lap

The 59er trapeze option at present was going to be a bespoke mod by owners, and yes although the main and jib are roughly similar to a 400 with a .76 difference, the 59er is significantly lighter. Having sailed handicap races with contenders and RS700 & 800's sailed by ex European and National champions the boat is always there or there abouts in the top 5. If you think the 59er is underpowered it must have been light airs or the boat was set-up incorrectly. As stated previously we sail just over 25 stone all up and plenty powerful enough.

My dear Shingle - that you seem to consider that 25 stone is a heavy crew merely illustrates the problem. That's only 79.35 kilo each. According to the chart I have here 25% of 22 year old males weigh more than 72 kilos

I fail to see how two scrum halves in a boat could in any way be considered as anything other than a lightweight crew! Bring back the pre-trapeze International 14s,  the Tempest, the pre weight limit Star and other real big boats.

Gordon

1m94 125 kilos

I see, its a matter of perspective, heavy weight definition can be interpreted as larger than average. 

I've sailed Ospreys and it was really good, the new one at the boat show looked pretty good too. 

However I believe the request was for a 'light' 2 man boat?  ...they look at the words....

The 59er will carry more weight easily, we've taken my children out in it and there's no real deteriation in performance. If you want a boat that can carry more than 30 stone and beat a 49er you really are in a niche that no builder will provide for. Anything that can carry more than that will have a dart board pinned the the mast! As earlier in this thread sports boats like the 1720 and SB3 are picking up this market.

Two points :

Russell - heavy weight does not mean larger than average...I would suggest that heavy weight could be defines as the heaviest 10% of the population fit enough to sail dinghies. That should be alarge enough niche for a class (not necessarily a SMOD)

Shingle - who said anything about beating a 49er. I would be satisfied to sail a class that gives good tight racing, safe in the knowledge that the sponsor's T shirdt would fit...

Gordon

If ultimate performance is not crucial get a Wayfarer. Despite people generally saying that they are slow, heavy etc they are actually great boats and will benefit from some beef on board.

In racing trim they go really well in most condition, seem to do well in handicap arcaing and have some great class racing.

They may not be particularly fashionable (especially with the skiff loving brigade) but can be sailed all all venues and can be very exciting when its breezy (when many other boats are upside down).

Dear Shingle - I didn't say that performance wasn't necessary - but asking any two man hiking dinghy to beat an extreme two wire skiff is setting the target  unnecessarily, and unrealistically, high.

Rich96 - I agree with you about the Wayfarer - which is why I've got one sitting in the front garden being got prepared for next season! But it is hardly either fast or lightweight - just a really good boat for local conditions (open exposed coastline 2/3 knot currents and regular doses of radiation because the Brits can't run a clean factory at Selarfield!).

As some of you may have gathered the increasing discrimination against the weighter sailors is something I feel strongly about.

Gordon

The problem seems to be that the newer generation of performance boats are mostly of lightweight construction which results in them more being affected by the crew weight than som eof the traditional classes.

This, allied to the ability to produce more controllable rigs, appears to favour the lighter sailor (I know a number of guys who are large, but not in any way huge, who complain that they have a very limited choice of boat if they want to helm).

If you are on the larger side it  seems that you can sail a 505, Osprey, Javelin, Finn, Phantom and thats about it. Mind you it pleasing to see that the Italian who won the Contender Worlds weighed in at over 93kg.

The phantom is of lightweight construction with a very controlable rig, yet is only really suitable for 85-105kg helms.  Surely a two man boat can be built using the latest lightweight construction techniques, but still happily carry 200kg!

Firstly I should state that the trapeze option for the 59er is currently only adopted by 2 of us in Brisbane, Australia. It is a bit of fun to upgrade the upwind performance in 15 knots plus of breeze. The class hasn't adopted this as such.

Secondly the 59er does carry weight very well. A few months ago I took a novice crew out racing in about 12 knots of breeze. I weigh 90kg and he weighs 110kg. I set the rig up for power and in a couple off puffs I actually needed to start depowering the rig!

I can assure people that as a hiking boat the 59er would probably benefit from weight if it is sailed in a breezy location.

The Swift Solo which I am building also handles weight well as a singlehanded option. (shameless plug)  

A bit of a ramble...

1.  As boats get lighter, there is less disadvantage to being a lightweight in strong winds (based on the Bethwaite definition of Sail Carrying Power to Weight ratio which may not be to every bodies liking but works for me).  If the boat weighed nothing at all, the SCP to weight ratio would be the same for everybody.

2. As rigs become more controllable, it is easier to de-power - favouring lightweights.

3. As boats go faster, flatter sails are more efficient and ultimately you need flatter sails to go faster.

These basic points lead to the simple fact that development is leading to lighter crews being able to handle more powerful boats.  If you look at the UK Cherubs (yes it is a boat for lightweights) in single trapeze mode the white sail area has gone from 100ft2 to 12.5m2 and this can be handled by the same crew weight range because the rigs have become more efficient and easier to depower.

In my 29er, I can de-power the boat enough to be sat on the side of the boat in 15kts with only 100Kg on board or fully powered with 140Kg including one on the wire. 

I sailed a 59er with a total weight on board of 150kg and we were starting to depower upwind in 7 - 8 kts.  With the rig set-up correctly with 230Kg on board in theory you would be fully powered in 10 - 12 kts on that basis.  59er is not an underpowered boat - it is just that with a modern rig, because it is so easy to de-power you have to pay attention to setting the rig up to extract maximum power from it - it is easy to dump power.

Is a new class needed for those in the range 180Kg to 250Kg - don't know but isn't it worth giving the 59er another go first?

5K all the way!

NOT A HIKING BOAT THOUGH IS IT!!!!!!

It was blowing it's nuts off all week and Andrea Bonezzi wins whatever the wind is doing. I timed him tacking from wire to wire at under 10 seconds at the Plymouth worlds and I suspect this is what wins events not being the right weight.

While we are on the subject of big crews, we have a 505 Worlds at Hayling this year.

Dates are 24th July to the 4th Aug (Preworlds and Worlds).  Anyone wants a ride, let me know, and I'll try to play matchmaker.

We usually have a few "international" scratch teams, so if you fancy bevving it up with a noisy Aussie for a fortnight or so.....let me know and I'll put your hats in the ring.

Cheers,

Charlie W

Originally posted by Norbert As one who aspires to be merely adequate when it comes to sailing, dream things like 18ft skiffs were never going to be on the agenda despite winning the euro millions rollover lottery. However what about the 16 ft skiffs, 2 crew on trapeze, helm loafing around on the side deck, enough sail to cover the millenium dome yet less than 6ft wide. Maybe some of our antipodean contributors could comment as to whether they're any good or are they just a 'poor mans' 18 http://www.fotofast.com.au/viewAlbumPro.asp?1141179685 - http://www.fotofast.com.au/viewAlbumPro.asp?1141179685

They are nice boat - not as extreme as the 12s or 18s which are basically dead here in Brisbane. The latest I14s get around the race track in about the same time as them. The sails on the no1 rig are huge! You can pick an old one up here for about $5,000. The only hassle is that you need to find 2 people to crew each weekend. They are easier to sail than a 49er but not exactly a beginners boat. They make fantastic sight going downwind with 2 on the trapeze and the huge kite up the front!

They fit a different niche than the 18s. If you have a bit of determination you can sail one which is a different from the criteria to sail 18s.  

Mr swiftsolo.org - you say you're in Brisbane???? I'm in Bris from now till March 13th - fancy meeting up for a beer?

PM me if it sounds like a plan.

CHeers.

The idea that the 59er is for bigger crews is a myth - 140kgs minimum recommended weight by Ovingtons (thats two 11 stone people).  So fair enough its not for girls but it isnt for fat b-stards as well.  It is marketed as the skiff for older people, it doesnt have the sail area to make it a truly good weight carrier.   

I'd doubt that it could be classed as a skiff as well! 

Freddie, claiming that Neil Pryde makes better sails that Hyde (for the 400) isnt really for you to say - Hyde make excellent sails, just because the 9ers use Prydes does not make them better!   Give me a set of Norths over Prydes anyday (on my B14 I wouldn't sail with anything other than Norths).

And on that point - the B14 is a two man hiking boat that does remain competitive with up to about 28 stone in it.  It is a country mile faster than a 59er and there are loads more of them around, with a well organised class association and lots of racing (International Class!).  People moan about it not having a chute for the kite, but it makes you a bigger man having to pack the kite (good training for the 18ft Skiff) and it really isnt that difficult!

Sorry but 140kg for a 59er would not be fast. When I won the nats in 2004 with Adam Ovington we were 165kg and we were getting blown away by bigger guys up wind in anything more than a f3. but we were faster down wind so maybe 160 to 170 would be about optimum.

 I dont sail the boat now but it is so under rated, really enjoyed the 59er best thing to do is go for a test sail in one.

Cant hurt to give it a go (well only you legs from the hiking) 

Just Keep taking the Tablets, I've never seen 28stone near a B14, and if there's one on the circuit I'll go to the next open to see how well they do! Maybe in an F6-7 but less than that and they'd be left for dead.

Target payload is around 180kg with a range down to 150....Bethwaite design and other 'myths' vombat?

Makes  it  fit over the   max sensible for  the laser 4000, B14 etc while not punishing heavy crews in the light as in the RS400

The fact it 'is' being sailed by lighter crews, with less 'lever' and early depowering probably corresponds to  your observation:

Second generation 59er owners now coming through - me included.  I am hoping to see some events shared with the 9er fleet this year, I will certainly go if they hold them and DH is hoping they will. Second hand prices are now coming down but are still above old rs400's b14s etc, but then that makes it a good investment in my book.  I have heard a lot of myths about 59er pricing, its virtually the same as an rs400. Comparing dinghy show prices there was £500 between the 2.  One person at the show had thought that the 59er was over 10k and this is rubbish

Unfortunately time is not enough, it needs eager people. The boats seem like a risk to anyone buying new as there's no Class activity. With no CA to push things along it will be an uphill struggle. So do you buy one to enjoy exciting handicap racing? We did and don't regret it, but it would be nice to have the option of an open meeting if we wanted.

I think the way the MPS has grown is fantastic and a credit to the few that put in the effort. Maybe some keen soul will do the same for the 59er, but the initial difference is there are fewer boats out there. If a trapeze option keeps it alive I'm not going to object.

Don't forget you have to add lead to brig you up to 150 KG - the minimum crew weight.  So in theory no-one should sail with less than that.

Ok it may say that on the ovi site but it does not say that is the optimum weight! and it says 180kg  in the same line!! 

 I just gave you my point that we were 165kg and would have liked to havee been fatter up wind.

Just a quick point, isn't the B14 targetted towards a different sailor than the 59er? The B14 is a boat which performs well with highly agile sailors where as the 59er is targetted at heavier sailors, maybe the reason that the same company is selling both the classes? If they were boats which rival each others market, I don't think it woulld be good business for the same company to be promoting both boats.

I don't think the question here is which is best - they are both superb boats but as previously stated on this thread targetted at different sailors.  I don't think that there is any question over the fact that ther 59er will carry more weight than a B14 - the original topic of this thread.  I am way too heavy to helm a B14 and usually sail with a novice crew on a small lake.  The B14 needs a little more experience and larger stretches of water to stretch its long legs. 

Tell you what though, crossing a 100 acre pond at 20 knts doesn't half improve your boat handling!

I did the 59er with a combined 200Kg a few weeks ago.  We swam too.  It was a case of:

Q. How much roll should we put into this tack?
A. Not that much!

I heard 35-37 but not sure, thats what we saying at the dinghy show.  Mines 090 which I think was the second UK built one, I think they are up to 127 now?

Willingness is not really enough, it's going to need some enthusiastic individuals to champion a class association. This is perhaps a strength of the RS Assoc, they cater for all the branded products and can pool resources centrally. With the 9er family, each CA is independent.

For a circuit to start the 59er will have to attach itself to another fleet. The B14 makes sense as it comes from the same builder, and they like me enjoy the odd drink or two! Whether it would work in practice is another matter. It really needs an initial core of at least half a dozen boats to turn up at a selected venue.

One way forward may be to have a regional rep to communicate with all owners in their vicinity, the arrange something from there.

Huh, nothing - a couple of years ago we sailed a 400 in one race where our combined height was 12 ft 10 ins and combined weight was 39 stone 8 pounds. This was a one off emergency never likely to happen again!.

My ideal lightweights boat would be about 12ft long, roughly 15.5sqm upwind rag, a 21sqm kite... say 1.8m beam and twin wire? yeah being a development class would be good too... oohohoh and can we have a heart shapped symbol on the sail too?

mkay.

mmm, but would it catch on? I mean you'd need some seriously fanatical people to get a class like that off the ground and where would you find them?

Just play with it for a few months then put a trap on and see if you want to take it back off! - You won't 

We are going to experiment with the Trapeze option. It's not going to drastically improve the boats speed, but may give it another dimension upwind. Downwind legs may be no different, as going deep may pay off. There's three 59ers in our club and if this makes them sail more or stops them selling then it can only be for the good from a local point of view. If we can go out in a blow without hurting afterwards then fine!

Russell, respect to your daughter hoisting and dropping the kite. Though the self tacker makes things simple.

She's not been in it yet - I'm too mean to buy her a drysuit while she is still growing, so she is waiting for warmer weather.  I have sailed with a novice crew though and I have done the drop myself.  Not sure if this will work when its windy, but we probably won't be out when its windy until she has got the hang of it. 

I was really suprised at the apparent wind effect, I didn't notice it nearly so much in the RS400.  I have been at one end of the lake thinking great I can go the full width (widest dimension) with the kite up only to get a gust and have to bear away 90 degrees almost.  The bank rushes towards you alarmngly at this point an one perfects the art of getting the kite promptly early on in the learning curve!

Yeah Russell, good point- welcome to real apparent wind sailing and not the 400s pale impersonation!

The boat is deadly fast on a white sails 'fetch' ie slack beat or mega tight reach, so you can choose to go up after the mark or near the next mark when it isn't windward leewards

This was a problem for B14 sailors I believe on restricted waters with 'round the cans' procession races.  Winward leeward is a far better set up for committee and sailors IMHO.