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Put these factors in order ....

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swiftsolo.org View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 6:47am

I would categorise it this way.

Before the event

  • Practice boat speed preferably with a training partner. If you do this enough it becomes basically automatic. IE breezy with waves go low with power in the rig etc etc. The body weight question takes care of itself here. If you are definitely the wrong weight for your class you will never have adequate boat speed over all conditions.
  • Practice boat handling so you are confident that you can tack gybe etc at least as well as the opposition.
  • Strategy for the venue. Is it windy, tidal, does the sea breeze come in at a predictable time etc etc.
  • Make sure no bits are going to fall off your boat - basic maintenance.

During the event

  • The start. If you have the above right and you get a good start it is unlikely you are going to go too far from top of the fleet. A bad start means you have to fight to get a respectable finish and you won't win.
  • Tactics. If it is a good fleet some other guys will have done all of the above things and you need to be aware of where they are and make sure you know this before making any "brave" strategic decisions. 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote NeilP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 10:27am

Here's my take - for what it's worth!

  • Boat should be as near perfect as you can get it - hull finish, foils, rig and fittings. Boatspeed very rarely wins races, but lack of it can sure lose them!
  • Boat handling up to scratch - including down-speed prestart. Good boat-to boat tactics are impossible without secure boat-handling.
  • Starting ability is vital. You can win races after a poor start, but your options are reduced, you have to take risks and you cannot afford ANY more errors. A good start and good boatspeed drastically reduces the need to get involved in tactical situations.
  • Know where you want to be on the racecourse, but be prepared to be flexible.

In the end though, unless you are a complete genius, the chances of winning over a series in a slow boat are very slim. There will be other people in the fleet whose starting, strategy, boathandling and tactics are just as good as yours, and if their boat is faster...well, you do the maths!

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 11:45am
Originally posted by Stefan Lloyd

Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

Heh! I don't want to say, because I like being anonymous!

So what do you want to say that you need to be anonymous for? Personally, I'm willing to put my real name to what I say, and if I'm not, I don't say it. There are plenty of things I wouldn't say on a public forum but anonymity isn't a solution to that.

With respect, if we don't know who you are and you won't say what class you are talking about, it's not easy to assess what you say.

I'm not making a big deal of this; it's Mark's choice whether he allows people to remain anonymous. Just pointing out that you leave us with a problem.

Why do you like being anonymous?

Are you saying things here you would not say in person?

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 12:05pm

To people who are putting boatspeed first; the original qustion (with some clarification) was saying that you are already near the front of the fleet; so what wuld these be; I would assume that in this case; boatspeed would already be near the best you can get.  This is why I don't feel Boatspeed is VERY important as you are already very fast (in fleet terms) - thus the other factors become more important.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Guest Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by Scooby_simon

To people who are putting boatspeed first; the original qustion (with some clarification) was saying that you are already near the front of the fleet; so what wuld these be; I would assume that in this case; boatspeed would already be near the best you can get.  This is why I don't feel Boatspeed is VERY important as you are already very fast (in fleet terms) - thus the other factors become more important.

Correct - most of the front third of any fleet will have the boatspeed issue resonably under control; it's the human factors that make the difference from that point ...

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Post Options Post Options   Quote damp_freddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 5:26pm
Originally posted by Guest#260

Originally posted by Scooby_simon

To people who are putting boatspeed first; the original qustion (with some clarification) was saying that you are already near the front of the fleet; so what wuld these be; I would assume that in this case; boatspeed would already be near the best you can get.  This is why I don't feel Boatspeed is VERY important as you are already very fast (in fleet terms) - thus the other factors become more important.

Correct - most of the front third of any fleet will have the boatspeed issue resonably under control; it's the human factors that make the difference from that point ...




In terms of the dinghy context I can't offer comment, but in keel boats (OD) you certainly do pay a hell of attention to boat speed on the day - some by feel, others by instruments (sailing by numbers-yawn!) others simply by the leech-land relative movement on the fleet.

Instrumments lie of course and are irrelevant to dinghies.

Most of the real consistent winning boats I have sailed on (keel) have actaully a near paranoid level of concern for boat speed if they are not clearly in a controlling situation with good speed. If somehting feels wrong, a discussion is taken a nd a call on settings made

'Twitchy tweakers' in dinghies seem to shake out a lot of boat speed in messing about with lines and settings on the water.

good thread BTW IMHO ODTP

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Bruce Starbuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 5:53pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

you could win the Enterprise nationals with extremely average boat-handling if you were going quick enough and sailing smart enough.

What, in shifty light airs races if your roll tacking wasn't up to snuff?

Yeah. How many tacks would you do in a Nationals race first beat? I'd say either 4 or 6 would be the most common answer in a displacement boat if you're near the front. Probably 4 for the leader.

I wasn't talking about being so bad at tacking that you're falling out of the boat, but just being of an average standard. If an amazing roll-tacker is in the race as well, and takes 1M out of you each tack, that's only 4M in a beat. If his boatspeed isn't quite blistering, then he will at some point find himself dropping into another boat's lane or not quite crossing a starboard-tacker and having to do some extra tacks as a result and his boat-handling advantage will be meaningless.

An Enterprise nationals race probably wouldn't be started in under 5 knots of wind, and would be on the sea, so not that shifty. Always boatspeed conditions. If the wind dropped so light in a race that it was quicker to roll-tack up the beat then I'd expect to see an abandonment flag.

Now, winning an Enterprise open meeting would be a different matter altogether. Boatspeed wouldn't be all that important at all, compared to tacking and mark-rounding ability but my example was about a nationals race.

 

To anyone who thinks tactics are more important than boatspeed, quite often a nationals winner's scoresheet will look something like this: 1,3,1,2,11,12,1,1,4,3   :  The winner would have a string of good results from most days and a couple outside the top 10 in some different conditions, say when it's windier.   Given that this person is employing the same championship-winning standard of tactics throughout the week, it must be the case that the change in conditions has left their boatspeed affected to the worse on that windy day. Enough to drop them from the front to outside the top 10. So how important would tactics be on the windy day for someone who struggles in those conditions but wins races when it's light and medium? Compared to their boatspeed problems, not even remotely important.

In my example, the range of results on the days when you're fast could be from say 1st to 4th, decided by your tactics and strategy, but a small decrease to boatspeed for a day would be enough to drop the national champion out of the top 10 in many cases, regardless of any other factor.

BTW, I don't remember it saying you had to disclose your identity to contribute to this forum. I thought it was optional. There are loads of anonymous people on here. I choose to remain anonymous because it suits me. Does it make my points any less valid? Well, probably, yes, but so what? It's not a court of law, just a discussion forum.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Stefan Lloyd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 6:08pm
Originally posted by Bruce Starbuck

Yeah. How many tacks would you do in a Nationals race first beat? I'd say either 4 or 6 would be the most common answer in a displacement boat if you're near the front. Probably 4 for the leader.

IBTW, I don't remember it saying you had to disclose your identity to contribute to this forum. I thought it was optional. There are loads of anonymous people on here. I choose to remain anonymous because it suits me. Does it make my points any less valid? Well, probably, yes, but so what? It's not a court of law, just a discussion forum.

Championship beats are usually long. Only 4 tacks on average; not in any class I've sailed. In plenty of classes in light/moderate conditions, tacking costs nothing. It might even (whisper it) speed you up.

Wind steady on the sea; that's a big generalisation. Try sailing in the Solent with the wind anywhere from NW to E. Huge shifts are common.

You've gone beyond anonymity. You won't even say what class you are talking about. It does make a meaningful dialogue a bit difficult.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Offshoretiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 6:25pm

Originally posted by damp_freddie



In terms of the dinghy context I can't offer comment, but in keel boats (OD) you certainly do pay a hell of attention to boat speed on the day - some by feel, others by instruments (sailing by numbers-yawn!) others simply by the leech-land relative movement on the fleet.

Instrumments lie of course and are irrelevant to dinghies.

Most of the real consistent winning boats I have sailed on (keel) have actaully a near paranoid level of concern for boat speed if they are not clearly in a controlling situation with good speed. If somehting feels wrong, a discussion is taken a nd a call on settings made

'Twitchy tweakers' in dinghies seem to shake out a lot of boat speed in messing about with lines and settings on the water.

good thread BTW IMHO ODTP

(off down the pub)

I reckon boat speed on the day is definitley important, even if half of it is psycological. Ive definatley had days and races were I just dont feel I have speed on boats I would normally expect to be with or be beating. At that point sometimes you need to start tweaking. Other days you feel like your flying and you go well. The one that really messes you up is when your speed is OK but you start tweaking anyway. So when Im driving and I start saying it all feels slow my crew usually tells me to shut up and drive and stop worrying about it.

I know this question was originally about the top end of the fleet where general boat speed is going to be good but feeling fast on the day is probably still important and knowing how to get from being or feeling slow to being fast.

And if compasses count as insturments then there not nessesariley irrellavant to dinghies....

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Scooby_simon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Dec 05 at 8:14pm


Bruce,

 

You are missing the point IMO; the speed difference we are talking about might be 1% (max); all the top boats WILL be going the same speed (almost);

So take it cat sailing on a small/medium sized course of say 15km upwind/dw;

that is a difference of 150m; that is one bad tack !, 2 bad Gybes or going the wrong way up one beat !

Simple as that.  

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