.... when trying to win a championship ...

Seems there are differences of opinion' this is my view ...

1. Strategy (boat on fleet/weather patterns)
2. Tactics (boat on boat/shifts)
3. Starting
4. Rules
5. Boat Speed (inc. weight of boat, tuning of rig)
6. Boat Handling
7. Correct Weight (right crew weight for class)

Feel free to justify your order.

Rick

OOOwww, you know how to ask a good question.

Id like to give a straight 1234 but some of them are too inter-related. For me weight (no7) is part of boat speed(5), just another factor. Starting (no3) is part of tactics (no2), but a very important part. Boat handling gives speed, and overall strategy dictate you tactics.

I don't think that was the consensus amongst the Musto sailors ... I think most felt that it was a boat speed advantage.

I think those elements of the sport are easier to practice on a training course ... how do you practice race strategy on a weekend course... those are the things you learn over time on the race course

Rick

I guess you have to assume a certain level of proficiency if we are considering these elements in the context of trying to win  a championships ...

We are in the same ball park here ...

Rick

Ah - so our sport is complexed and all the issues are inter-related so we need to be good at everything. Of course true.

But I guess the bottom line seems to be better to be a good sailor than have the best boat.

Of couse to be both is the optimum ...

Rick

True, but in most classes, few win championships by falling over less than the other top 5 boats either. To me, good boat handling is just a qualification for it being worth turning up to a championship in the first place. I will admit to not generally having sailed classes where the boathandling is especially difficult, so I may be biased in that answer.   

In most of the classes I've sailed, starting is absolutely critical. You won't ever recover from a bad start. Nor will you come out of the critical first five minutes after the start in clear air without boatspeed at least as good as the boats around you. Thereafter, it's mostly tactics. "Heads out of the boat" as a frequent keelboat class champion always advises.

Generally there isn't much "strategy" on championship courses. If there is a clear and predictable advantage to one side of the course, the race officer isn't doing his job properly (or the venue is unsuitable). However for events like Cowes Week, strategy is critical.

So if you could be brilliant at one thing what would it be?

For me it would be starting ...

Rick

The few times I've won the start in a big fleet, I've been amazed how easy it is staying at or at least near the front. So yes, it has to be starting.

Don't understand?

Oh - I see.

Depends on your mentality ... and your expectation of result.

If I win the start well I expect to win the race.

Rick

I think that winning is one step up from expectations.

"If I win the start well I expect to win the race"

I would imagine if Ben Anslie wins the start then he "knows" that he will win the race.
I've watched my son progress through his first year in the Topper national series. He has progressed from being outside the top 100 to finishing in the top 40. Nothing has changed during the season, same sail and hull , except for his attitude. Instead of hoping for a top 40 place at the start of the season he now knows he will get them.
And back to Ben, his competitors will also know that if he wins the start he will win the race.
I believe that psychology and confidence are the biggest factors once equipment and boat handling have evened out. 

1. boatspeed, without speed you can never win in a good fleet

2starts, not going to come from behind in a good fleet

3tactics

4rules

5boat handling.

6 strategy

tactics/rules/boathandling/strategy, will all keep you at the top but without the others you are not going to win

i dont think weight should be there, it just gets lumped in with boatspeed to me

The old man used to say:

"The race isn't always to the swift, but that is the way to bet.'

So given my skill levels, which go up and down with age and time in the boat, I will always want to be riding a swifter chariot.  Speed rules.

SHC

Wouldn't we all. The question is: is there any such thing? I'd suggest that in most fleets, the front of the fleet are all getting 100% of possible boatspeed and the differences in finishing order come in starting and tactics. 

Agreed - people like to foucs on the equipment as they can blame their poor performance on it ...

I have never heard a winner credit it to the best gear.

Rick

Naturally, its all down to their great skill, and focus blah blah blah....

The proof is in the pudding..... check out the potential winners as they check their rake 5 times, or spreader angle twice..... or try asking them what figure it reads before, not after a race...... you get a different response. They know, I know....... gear counts... its part of boat speed which is 50% of your race.

I couldn't agree less! I think the finishing order in most regattas is broadly the same as the order of boatspeed of the competitors.

I won a big nationals a few years back:- when we went the right way up the first beat we rounded first and won the race and when we went the wrong way up the first beat we rounded about 10th and went on to finish 3rd or so. We could have done the exact opposite of every tactical decision we made that week and still won because we were going faster than anyone else.

I suspect this is true for many National championship winners.

The differences in boatspeed I'm talking about are tiny but they make all the difference, and by boatspeed I mean sailor-speed as well, not just the boat itself.

Boatspeed is the most important thing by a long way. If you can tack and cross someone's bow by a couple of inches you may be launched, but if you're a few inches short of crossing, your race might be over. As they say, "sailing's a game of inches:- inches that turn into f***ing miles!!"

What class was that Bruce; and when?

Heh! I don't want to say, because I like being anonymous! It was a decent one though, with 70-odd boats.

I'd say Rules is the least important of your criteria. You only need to know rules when it's going badly and you're getting protested!

Boat-handling is a variable one! In the 49er it'd be hugely important but you could win the Enterprise nationals with extremely average boat-handling if you were going quick enough and sailing smart enough.

The top sailors are usually quite good at everthing though!

That is up to you but any class where you can win the nationals with just boat speed sailing the wrong way can't be up to much ...

Rick

So what do you want to say that you need to be anonymous for? Personally, I'm willing to put my real name to what I say, and if I'm not, I don't say it. There are plenty of things I wouldn't say on a public forum but anonymity isn't a solution to that.

With respect, if we don't know who you are and you won't say what class you are talking about, it's not easy to assess what you say.

I'm not making a big deal of this; it's Mark's choice whether he allows people to remain anonymous. Just pointing out that you leave us with a problem.

I think it is class depandant;One stuffed tack i a cat (travelling at maybe 12-15 kts upwind) will loose you 100m; difficult to make up in just pure boat speed

One stuffed gybe will loose more.

To my eyes boat speed is the most important of the lot - if you have poor boatspeed you are losing ground to the leaders all the time. If you get a perfect start and have no boatspeed, the best you can hope for is to go backwards slower than usual, whereas if you get a half decent start and have great boatspeed, you'll still be up there. Tactics against other boats are important some of the time - however IMHO it's better to be able to sail in clean air - which comes back to boatspeed.

Boathandling governs your boatspeed to an extent so it's nearly as important. In terms of rules I've lost races to not knowing the rules well enough but never series or positions in a championship. Again, with great boatspeed, you can often sail yourself out of trouble.

Correct weight is a bit of a misnomer - if you're tubby but can sit still then you're going to go well in light airs. If you're underweight but can depower a boat and sail it flat you'll go well in a blow.

With that in mind I'd say:

1. Boat Speed (inc. weight of boat, tuning of rig)

2. Boat Handling

3. Tactics

4. Starting

5. Strategy

6. Rules

7. Correct Weight

I would categorise it this way.

Before the event

• Practice boat speed preferably with a training partner. If you do this enough it becomes basically automatic. IE breezy with waves go low with power in the rig etc etc. The body weight question takes care of itself here. If you are definitely the wrong weight for your class you will never have adequate boat speed over all conditions.
• Practice boat handling so you are confident that you can tack gybe etc at least as well as the opposition.
• Strategy for the venue. Is it windy, tidal, does the sea breeze come in at a predictable time etc etc.
• Make sure no bits are going to fall off your boat - basic maintenance.

During the event

• The start. If you have the above right and you get a good start it is unlikely you are going to go too far from top of the fleet. A bad start means you have to fight to get a respectable finish and you won't win.
• Tactics. If it is a good fleet some other guys will have done all of the above things and you need to be aware of where they are and make sure you know this before making any "brave" strategic decisions. 

Here's my take - for what it's worth!

• Boat should be as near perfect as you can get it - hull finish, foils, rig and fittings. Boatspeed very rarely wins races, but lack of it can sure lose them!
• Boat handling up to scratch - including down-speed prestart. Good boat-to boat tactics are impossible without secure boat-handling.
• Starting ability is vital. You can win races after a poor start, but your options are reduced, you have to take risks and you cannot afford ANY more errors. A good start and good boatspeed drastically reduces the need to get involved in tactical situations.
• Know where you want to be on the racecourse, but be prepared to be flexible.

In the end though, unless you are a complete genius, the chances of winning over a series in a slow boat are very slim. There will be other people in the fleet whose starting, strategy, boathandling and tactics are just as good as yours, and if their boat is faster...well, you do the maths!

Neil

Why do you like being anonymous?

Are you saying things here you would not say in person?

Rick

To people who are putting boatspeed first; the original qustion (with some clarification) was saying that you are already near the front of the fleet; so what wuld these be; I would assume that in this case; boatspeed would already be near the best you can get.  This is why I don't feel Boatspeed is VERY important as you are already very fast (in fleet terms) - thus the other factors become more important.

Correct - most of the front third of any fleet will have the boatspeed issue resonably under control; it's the human factors that make the difference from that point ...

Yeah. How many tacks would you do in a Nationals race first beat? I'd say either 4 or 6 would be the most common answer in a displacement boat if you're near the front. Probably 4 for the leader.

I wasn't talking about being so bad at tacking that you're falling out of the boat, but just being of an average standard. If an amazing roll-tacker is in the race as well, and takes 1M out of you each tack, that's only 4M in a beat. If his boatspeed isn't quite blistering, then he will at some point find himself dropping into another boat's lane or not quite crossing a starboard-tacker and having to do some extra tacks as a result and his boat-handling advantage will be meaningless.

An Enterprise nationals race probably wouldn't be started in under 5 knots of wind, and would be on the sea, so not that shifty. Always boatspeed conditions. If the wind dropped so light in a race that it was quicker to roll-tack up the beat then I'd expect to see an abandonment flag.

Now, winning an Enterprise open meeting would be a different matter altogether. Boatspeed wouldn't be all that important at all, compared to tacking and mark-rounding ability but my example was about a nationals race.

To anyone who thinks tactics are more important than boatspeed, quite often a nationals winner's scoresheet will look something like this: 1,3,1,2,11,12,1,1,4,3   :  The winner would have a string of good results from most days and a couple outside the top 10 in some different conditions, say when it's windier.   Given that this person is employing the same championship-winning standard of tactics throughout the week, it must be the case that the change in conditions has left their boatspeed affected to the worse on that windy day. Enough to drop them from the front to outside the top 10. So how important would tactics be on the windy day for someone who struggles in those conditions but wins races when it's light and medium? Compared to their boatspeed problems, not even remotely important.

In my example, the range of results on the days when you're fast could be from say 1st to 4th, decided by your tactics and strategy, but a small decrease to boatspeed for a day would be enough to drop the national champion out of the top 10 in many cases, regardless of any other factor.

BTW, I don't remember it saying you had to disclose your identity to contribute to this forum. I thought it was optional. There are loads of anonymous people on here. I choose to remain anonymous because it suits me. Does it make my points any less valid? Well, probably, yes, but so what? It's not a court of law, just a discussion forum.

Championship beats are usually long. Only 4 tacks on average; not in any class I've sailed. In plenty of classes in light/moderate conditions, tacking costs nothing. It might even (whisper it) speed you up.

Wind steady on the sea; that's a big generalisation. Try sailing in the Solent with the wind anywhere from NW to E. Huge shifts are common.

You've gone beyond anonymity. You won't even say what class you are talking about. It does make a meaningful dialogue a bit difficult.

I reckon boat speed on the day is definitley important, even if half of it is psycological. Ive definatley had days and races were I just dont feel I have speed on boats I would normally expect to be with or be beating. At that point sometimes you need to start tweaking. Other days you feel like your flying and you go well. The one that really messes you up is when your speed is OK but you start tweaking anyway. So when Im driving and I start saying it all feels slow my crew usually tells me to shut up and drive and stop worrying about it.

I know this question was originally about the top end of the fleet where general boat speed is going to be good but feeling fast on the day is probably still important and knowing how to get from being or feeling slow to being fast.

And if compasses count as insturments then there not nessesariley irrellavant to dinghies....

Bruce,

You are missing the point IMO; the speed difference we are talking about might be 1% (max); all the top boats WILL be going the same speed (almost);

So take it cat sailing on a small/medium sized course of say 15km upwind/dw;

that is a difference of 150m; that is one bad tack !, 2 bad Gybes or going the wrong way up one beat !

Simple as that.  

Bad advice I think. IMO the helm is the only person who can feel if the boat is going well and in particular if it is under- or over-powered. I think on a bigger boat, apart from waggling the tiller, the helm's main job is coordinating the trimmers. Certainly as a sportsboat helm, I've often had to stop crew cranking everything in upwind in powered-up conditions. What looks pretty isn't always fast. This all assumes that the helm has the experience to know when the boat is right and when it is not. This takes time to learn and is quite class-specific. 

For me, it keeps coming back to boatspeed. The best tactical sailor in the world won't win races if his speed is poor, cos everyone will just run away and refuse to play! Try covering tactics when the boat you want to cover is faster than you, and therefore ahead of you.

I don't honestly think it makes any difference whether we are talking about the front, middle or back of the fleet. The priorities are the same, and speed is king.

OT - you know my thoughts on rig tweaking. If it's not right, do something about it! However fast you may be, if the boat under you is not working you have to fix it. Otherwise you might as well tie off all controls on shore and just sail. Doesn't sound much fun to me!

Neil

Even if a tack costs 150m in fast cat sailing(I don't know, but let's say), the difference between a good and a below average tack won't be this much. The 150m is the difference between tacking and not tacking.

Take the situation coming off the start line in this fast cat race. Everyone gets an equal front row start. After 20 seconds, the boat with 1% less boatspeed than the top guys start to fall into the boat below. Pretty soon they're struggling for clear air. They tack and have now lost 150m on the leaders plus the 1% in boatspeed. Starboard tack is lifting though, so the slow guys go off on a header for a bit and tack back after a minute. They are now 300m plus the 1% behind. The very fastest boat who is .1% faster than the other top guys has by this time squeezed out the boat to windward and has a clear lane to tack which is nice because the wind has shifted to the left. The leader does his first tack and comes back across the fleet in a nice lift. The wind heads them slightly but it doesn't matter because any boats coming across on starboard have done 2 tacks and are automatically 150m behind at best. The leader tacks on the layline and rounds first having done 2 tacks. The slow boat meanwhile is about 500miles behind because he had to tack again a couple of times when other boats tacked on them and they have been sailing most of the beat in a mixture of dirty air and confused seas.

All because of being 1% slower.

A bad tack looses 150m a good one does not. 

Handy that Starboard was lifting. 

But as I said, the "slightly slower boat" is better than the rest of the fleet so they will be starting to windward (you forgot to mention that bit) so they will know that the shift is coming, be at the right side of the line and get the best of the shift.  The others are desperate for clear air and foot off after being beaten at the start and just make their position worse as there is a port shift coming.  As they have control of the fleet, they get to tack first when the port favored shift comes and so gain a little more;  The shifts are fairly large so they are gaining on each tack (their tacking is also better as this is more important); they round 200m ahead.

Pop the kite quickly (better boat handling) and then spot a good header (they are better at tacktics and condition spotting) and belt off down the run (they are now 300m ahead).  Further down they spot another gust and lift coming down the course so they gybe (quickly) onto what will become a header (good down wind) and gain another 50m in the gybe; extra pressue gains them 4kts speed and they are also sailing lower than the rest of the fleet. 

They round the mark 500m ahead and don't tack as they spot a lift coming which is good for them and bad for the rest of the fleet as they are not around the mark yet and are now being pushed high.  Up the next beat the wind is unstable and shifting every few minutes (enough to make it wrth tacking on each shift) so they are gaining on each of the 10 tacks they make, 30M on each tack; they are no doing a horizon job and are  800m ahead!!!!

Remember we are talking about small speed differences here.  If someone has a 5% jump in boat speed on the fleet, they then can just sail away !

That is clearly true and I think everyone on this thread would agree. The discussion however is whether significant boatspeed differences actually exist in the top section of the fleet. The answer probably depends on the class.  

Indeed. Even the 1% difference Bruce is talking about is a massive boatspeed advantage in the classes I've sailed lately. A 1% boatspeed advantage just isn't there to be had. In some of the offshore classes where you continue on the same tack for long periods, it isn't unusual to sail for 30-40 miles and only gain or lose a boatlength or two. Owners will pay large amounts of money to change boats to save 0.1% percent on their handicap.

The last Fastnet I did in Sigma/38s, after 600 miles and four days of racing, four of the class (us included) finished within a couple of minutes. That is how small the boatspeed differences are in some classes.  

It's only bad advice if the helm happens to be right. And if helms start being right we will all have to re appraise our lives and start again in our outlook on sailing.  

These issues are quite troubling in a single handed boat ...

This is the reason single-handed sailors indulge in obsessive-compulsive behaviours like weighing SMOD masts. If only there was someone else on the boat to blame for what goes wrong, they could relax like the rest of us.

Singlehanded sailors are split into to groups, those who would be crews and those who would be helms.

Crews in singlehanded boats are the ones that shout and swear at themselves for getting the tack wrong.

The helms are the ones who wait patiently for themselves to finish what they are doing and then queitly berate themselves at an almost inaudible volume for failing to predict what they wanted to do, then they check for weed on the rudder. 

As you say; in the classes you sail it's a massive difference, but I assume they tack quickly and don't kill you for bad boat handeling to the same degree.

Remember 1% is 10m in a 1000m leg; in a cat you loose 20m in a slightly bad tack.  How much of a shift do you need to gain 10m ?  How much more pressure will give you ther extra 10m.  This is why I think other things are more important when the front of the fleet is already going the same speed (well nearly)

Seems I pass for crew and helm then ...

It is slightly confusing to agree with someone and then find them telling you why you are mistaken. I thought we were both arguing that boatspeed differences are less significant than other factors, at least in our own classes. I wasn't discussing boat-handling.

But in terms of boat-handling, S/38s are heavy and relatively underpowered boats that most certainly don't accelerate quickly from bad tacks, and any kind of keelboat will bite you hard for boat handling errors downwind, especially in a decent breeze.

Yeah Neil I agree if the boat doesnt feel right and its not sailing right then you need to sort it. But usually when Jamie tells me to shut up and sail is when we are half way up a beat and the boat feels OK but not great and we arent loosing on the other boats around us. At that point if I try and tweak to get the boat to go from feeling fine to feeling great we usually end up going slower cos I stop concentrating on driving. So it tends to be faster for me to keep my mind on the job.

And to be fair I do this to helms as well when Im crewing. Espesially helms that always bear away when they put there head in the boat to look for string.

Do you have to concentrate on moving your feet when you walk? Helming should be as natural as walking. If it isn't, you need to spend more time at the tiller. You can bet Ben Ainslie isn't "concentrating on driving". He is thinking tactics, wind-shifts, current, other boats and boat-tune. 

That said, one of the best things I found about being the driver but not the skipper on other people's big boats is that I could just concentrate on making the boat go fast. All the other stuff involved in running a boat with 9 people on board was someone else's problem, whereas on my own boat I had to deal with it as well as steer. Nevertheless, "making the boat go fast" means talking to the trimmers all the time to get the boat going, not just waggling the wheel and staring at the tell-tales.

No but she does have an unfortunate tendancy to walk into things. And is constantly trying to walk under cars.

Is driving a car as natural as walking? No you constantly have to look ahead and concentrate to keep controll. If you look into the car to say find the button on your radio you do so as quick as possible so as not to loose concentration on the coming road.

When driving your boat you have the extra complication of the road being constantly unstable. and the other road users not traveling on the same linear path as yourself. So if you look in to the boat to tweak the lifter, pull on some shroud or ease the forestay back you have to be aware that you are taking your eyes of the road. I know that I can't steer as good a path through the water when I'm trying to find the string that ajusts the lower shrouds. So in a situation that we will definatly loose more by fiddling when we are doing pretty well in the race I will tell my helm that we WILL loose more than we MIGHT gain.

Whether she listens to me is entirley her choice. 

Im well aware I need to spend more time on the tiller, spending less time in borrowed boats would also be great cos I could spend less time trying to remember if the blue string is in/out or up/down on the jib cars and which color the kicker is on this boat 

As you said above being the driver but not the skipper on a big boat is easier than running the whole crew. When Ive got main in one hand, tiller in the other, one eye on the tell tales, one eye on whats around me, one ear listening to my crew, part of my brain thinking about how the boat feels and part of my brain thinking about what I want to do next its no wonder that working out what bit of string might help, finding a spare eye to spot it and a spare hand to ajust it can sometimes slow me down a bit......

As for trying to walk under cars, there is no traffic were I live!! And I'll probably be even worse after a few more months in USAland, even if I remeber to look, Ill look the wrong way

OT - you're missing the real point. When Jamie tells you not to worry about it, it has nothing to do with his careful analysis of the potential gains/losses as he claims, and everything to do with the fact that, being a stoodent AND a Sloth, he has absolutely no idea what's wrong or how to fix it!

It's all in code, like everything crews say

We are talking at cross purposes. The original point I was responding to was crew saying "Shut up and steer". My argument is that it is the helm who is in the position to call overall boat tune. Crew just doesn't have the same feedback the tiller provides (and I've done plenty of crewing as well as helming). Who pulls which string is another level of detail. The helm shouldn't be doing things the crew can do and the boat should be set up so the crew can do as much as possible upwind.

If the helm is bobbing about trying to pull strings then either the boat is laid out wrong or the helm just needs to learn to do more than one thing at a time. The helm ought to know exactly where controls are without having to look for them. Nobody said it is easy.

I once talked to the guy who has won more Salcombe Merlin Weeks than anyone else in the last 15+ years. Sailing at Salcombe often involves long short-tacking sessions to keep out of foul tide, every 20 seconds or so for upwards of a mile. Before every tack, he eases kicker, tightens main sheet, roll-tacks the boat, eases mainsheet while head to wind, pumps the main back on as the boat is rolled upright, centres the traveller and pulls kicker back on  as the boat accelerates. All of that every 20 seconds for 15 minutes or so. I get exhausted just thinking about it.

I agree the helm should be calling the overall boat tune as you have much more feedback. But I think what I was trying to get at originally was that worrying to much about your boat tune can slow you down as much as it speeds you up, particularly on a 'tweaky' boat. The times I am usually told to 'shut up and drive' is when our fleet position is fine and our boat speed is fine and I have somehow maneged to find time to start worrying about if we could point a wee bit higher or go a tiny bit faster if we played with this string or that string. Thats the point when I can slow us down by worrying about fine tune

Obviously this is not a problem the good guys have. What Im not sure is wether thats because they are always sure that there speed is as good as it possibly can be or because they always know what is important to focus on at each point in the race.

Neil - harsh and not really fair!

Oh Neil what a nice man you are.

OK I gess theres hope for me yet then    

Jamie, when I start stressing about nothing you know what to say!