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tickel View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 Feb 07 at 5:52pm
Oh, OK then. Thank you Frank (for thinking of me).
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 07 at 7:25pm

If boats were just designed with much less buoyancy off the centreline they'd float lower on their sides when capsized with lots of hull immersed, and

a) drift much more slowly,

b) allow you to climb on the c'board more easily, and

c) have less tendency (or need) to invert.

 

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Villan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Villan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 07 at 7:30pm
But wont they scoop more water in when they come back upright?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote les5269 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 07 at 7:55pm

Originally posted by Villan

But wont they scoop more water in when they come back upright?

 

Open transom?

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JimC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 07 at 8:45pm
Originally posted by les5269

Open transom?

An open transom only works if you've got enough buoyancy in the floor tanks to support the crew weight with the boat static above the water. If you've got that much buoyancy the boat is going to be high enough to drift, when here's no one in it (at least if its reasonably light) even if its just in floor tanks...

A big argument for side tanks is that they mean that there's plenty of air under the boat if inverted. My last Cherub (not the one that drifted down the Solent) had generous sidetanks as well as the floor tanks, which meant if you chucked it in inverted with the kite up you could just duck under into the air gap to take the kite down while the other crew member was climbing up on top of the boat to get ready to pull it up.

Edited by JimC
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Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 07 at 9:24pm

Getting on the plate/board of a high floating ( on their side) dinghy from the water is very hard, especially after a  swim and after a long, hard race.   Inverting the boat, pretty much stops the drift and most importantly, allows one crew member to clamber on board the upturned hull, grab the plate and ride the board from inverted to on its side.   It also gives the other crew time to lock on to the leeward shroud as the boat comes up. 

Modern boats with double bottoms all float high on their side and some older boats do so, such as Tasars with big side tanks.  Even Larks have been "improved"  with bigger tanks and float higher.   Add sealed masts or floatation equipment into the equation and capsizing in a big wind at sea is bad news.

I can't believe seeing "novices" using mast head floats on their RS700s etc and heading off to sea to practice alone.

If Bethwaite states  that  inverting is for safety, then we should listen very carefully.  I for one are in complete agreement and that is from someone who falls asleep at H & S briefings

  

 

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Post Options Post Options   Quote boatshed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 07 at 9:30pm
Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

More often than not, people who are learning to sail or relatively inexperienced aren't "quick" enough

I've been physically thrown off boats that have violently capsized and ended up 20 yards away from boat.  Being quick enough is not an issue.  The only thing that is quick is how fast one becomes separated from the boat.

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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Feb 07 at 10:58pm

Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by les5269

Open transom?

An open transom only works if you've got enough buoyancy in the floor tanks to support the crew weight with the boat static above the water. If you've got that much buoyancy the boat is going to be high enough to drift, when there's no one in it (at least if its reasonably light) even if its just in floor tanks...

Not if you have hull-bottom-depth foot wells for the boat's crew, which reduce the buoyancy in the capsized condition. A couple of bailers very quickly get rid of the water in the wells when upright and underway, aided by the flotation provided by the surrounding double-bottom.

A real bonus of this arrangement is that the crew members have their feet low during manoeuvres, greatly aiding stability and ease of just standing up, not to mention making it easy to get under a lower boom; the Fireball benefits from this aspect when the wind's honking. Not so good for running from wire to wire on skiffy boats, obviously, but we don't all sail those boats (or run across them if we do!)

 

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49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 07 at 12:31pm
Originally posted by boatshed

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

More often than not, people who are learning to sail or relatively inexperienced aren't "quick" enough

I've been physically thrown off boats that have violently capsized and ended up 20 yards away from boat.  Being quick enough is not an issue.  The only thing that is quick is how fast one becomes separated from the boat.

True, but were the boats you were thrown from violently boats designed conservatively like the Omega, Stratos, etc? I've been thrown violently from my craft but wouldn't expect it from a craft which I was teaching from. Being quick enough on a High Performance boat varies extremely from being quick enough on a training boat. You have more time to react in a less high performance design, but my initial point is that sometimes that time is not long enough for people unfamiliar to the sport and that the mast head systems which the boats come out of the factory with don't increase the time for people to react to a long enough period, and up to a certain degree, give novices false confidence as they feel that the mast head systems are a fail safe for preventing the boat from inverting.

Dennis Watson 49er GBR735
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English Dave View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote English Dave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Feb 07 at 2:15pm

On the Vortex I ended up tying a snap-shackle to the end of the mainsheet and attaching it to the spreader bar on my harness. I used a snap shackle for safety as I wanted quick-release in an emergency. It's a boat that floats high and has a large windage on its side. I found that helped a lot.

Still confused Jim. I can see your point re a Moth but are you saying that both you and your crew/helm were thrown 20 yds from the Cherub? The person left behind generally acts as a pretty good sea-anchor. We have had some pretty violent pitchpoles on the Hurricane at 20+ kts but we have never had a case when we have both ended up seperated from the boat. Cats blow away faster than most but cat masts are sealed to slow inversion. Anyone who has tried to bring a Hurricane59 back from a turtle will know the effort involved.

From memory the Stratos has an open transom but also has "flood tanks"which enable the boat to sit lower in the water when on its side. The idea being that it would be easier to climb onto a lower centerboard. As soon as the boat is righted the water drains from these tanks into the cockpit and out the back.

English Dave
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