So what do I get?

Originally posted by waldp laser 3000's in london. I'd be keen to try one. P

If you're thinking of a 3000 to match the above criteria
- don't. Unstable, cramped, hard to learn to trapeze
and at the same time, rubbish to hike from. Yes they
are fast downwind, but so are other boats.
Oh, and I've broken two (somebody thought we
should try team racing them - v. bad idea!).

(sorry any 3000 supporters)

Max

Originally posted by waldp OK, So I hear what you are saying, redback, but now I am confused, so you'll have to help. I thought that the Magno was brought out by Topper as a bigger alternative to the Topaz, followed by RS bringing out the Vision to be an upgraded Feva, and then Laser bringing out the Vago to compete with them, and sort of be an upgraded Pico (though quite a considerable step. Wasn't this the famous 'two person pico?) So, if the Vago wont suit, why would the Magno? I am sure I am missing something. Heeelllpppp!!!

The Magno seems to have more room in it and the same goes for the Vision - they seem not to have so much emphasis on being a performance boat trainer.  The front of a VAGO is cramped indeed and not somewhere where you could sit and go for a cruise.  Nothing wrong with that but I don't think that fits in with your criteria. 

If you are going to have a boat as tough as you suggest then it'll have to be polyprop and if its not to be a kids boat it'll have to be a Vision or Magno.  By the way polyprop is difficult to break but scratches easily and is difficult if not impossible to get the scratches out.  If you did ever break it they need very specialist kit to repair.

They are both asymmetrics, I believe, but whether they are suitable for trapezeing I'm not so sure.  Something else you should consider, bigger boats are less lively (generally) although faster but have more powerful sails and are thus heavier to handle.  The boats you are talking about are not big and so things will happen quickly and sometimes too quickly for novices - this is why Wayfarers make such good trainers.

I have to say you are asking a lot and the compromises you will have to make are going to be great so I think you should weight your requirements or buy 2 boats. 

With 2 boats many of the compromises disappear and you can more easily find boats from older designs and save a lot of money.  I sail a Laser 4000 a fairly uncompromising racing machine, but I also have a glass Enterprise which cost £350 with trolly and trailer.  Its good for taking out the complete beginner, cruising with the family (4 up), lending to youths to loon about in, taking on holiday and paddling up rivers.  Its very good for racing on quiet evenings, mid week.  You can sail it, one up, in light winds and stick an outboard on the back.  Its very versitile as are many of the older designs and cheap enough to use in circumstances which it may not quite be suitable for.

The other tack is an old cat design, tough and stable.

I am not suggesting you buy a 4000 however, both you and your crew need to know what you are doing to sail one of those.

RS200s are good
Can be sailed singlehanded, my brother, weighing 9 stone has.
Pretty tough
Fastish
Easily towed down cornish lanes
Easily handed on land, I could pull up the slipway by myself when I was 15.
Fun boat to muck around in
Good racing if decide you want to race.

But as it been has stated in previous posts, dart 16 would be v good. Brother thought it would be funny to run it up the beach, owwww, boat was fine.

Yes Hobies do pitch pole very easily but this can be avoided by not going out in a 4 or above.  They are surprisingly easy to right again.

The amount of room in a VAGO and a 200 are not comparable.  A 200 is spacious compared with a VAGO.

We have scouts who use Magnos at our club - they look good for training/cruising and the not too serious race - not the same sort of boat as a VAGO which is completely aimed at asymmetric training and racing for youth in my view.  Unlikely to be as fast as a 3000 mind.

Ok guys, thanks for all the advice.

It does sound like a dart is the best option. Any one got an idea how much they weigh, and whether they can go on a car roof. Easier to do that than tow it!

I think the only downside to a dart is that its a bit splashy(!) and doesn't tack very well (slow to go round).

So, if I was looking at a cat, is the general opinion that a dart 16 is the best option, or something else. I can sail darts. and have trapezed off them. I've never dunked myself on one, so I have no idea about how easy they are to right.

Let us know your thoughts, and also if there are any other boats you would suggest.

And once again, thanks!

P