Ok all, I've been reading the forum for a bit now, and am hoping you can all come up with some suggestion for me.

I've been thinking about buying a dinghy. But, the problem is I don't think what I want exists! So, I am up for ideas and compromises. I had better start by telling you what its for.

It's for me and the wife. That sounds easy, but it isn't. I've been sailing for 28 years now, done a fair bit of racing, and am at that point now where I love sailing, like the thrill of going fast, but can't be bothered with organised races any more (I am sure I am not the only one!) I have other ways of fulfilling my comptetitive tendancies!

So, The boat needs to be something thats easy to cart around, easy to launch, has OK performance, and room for the two of us. (Sounds easy so far!)

As well as that, I sail a lot on my own, so something that is well set up for single handed would be good. And it needs to be something with an assymetric spinnaker, cos that makes it more fun!

But now, let me bring the missus into the equation. She's been sailing...erm...4 months now. New starter. Loves it, but loves the feel of sailing. Doesn't like the competitive side. She learnt in Pico's and adores them. She would dearly like something that she can sail single handed if she wanted to, that didn't feel radically different from a Pico.

Oh yes, and the final requirement. It needs to be fairly bomb proof. The place I sail locally has not got the best slipway, and my wife is still a 'little nervous' when it comes to coming in alongside (she can do it, but if the boat is bombproof, she doesn't get so nervous). We also want to sail it in Cornwall, in secluded bays off beaches without screwing the bottom up!

So, simple, eh? I'll give you some starters about what I like. As I said, she adores the Pico, and would be more than happy if we just got two of them, but I don't feel it is anything like enough for me.

I spent a lot of time this summer sailing an RS Feva, which I fell in love with. Not the best boat out there, but fun, easy, stable, and in a good wind with the spinnaker up, quite respectable.

I sail GP14's quite regularly, but can't really see how you can sail singlehanded with a spinnaker (or is that just me?)

I like lasers, but prefer a boat with mainsail, jib, spinny rather than just the one.

I never had a great deal of affection for Toppers.

So, I was thinking about an RS Feva, but think it will be too small for two adults. (and a bit overloaded). Same thoughts about things like the Topper topaz, plus I have heard bad things about their spinnakers. I like the look of the RS Vision, and the new Laser Vago, but know nothing about them at all. Something that I can either have two sets of sails for, or can reef down sounds good. And if I have the choice of a trapeze for the future, when the missus gets more confident, then great.

I can't think of more info that you need, but let me know your thoughts. Have any of you sailed the Vision or Vago? Where can I get to have a go. More importantly, where can the missus have a go.

Oh yes, and one last thing. To start with, if my wife does sail singlehanded, she will probably want to sail with just a mainsail until she has some confidence, so the boat has to be able to go forwards under mainsail only, rather than just sit there!

Thanks for the ideas, as I am sure you'll come up with loads.

P

Guys

Doc Clifford. Yes, did think about a Cat. I sailed a Dart 16 this year quite a lot as well, and that was great fun. I suppose my hesitation is that firstly it doesn't tack or go upwind as well as a dinghy (in my experience), second, they tend to be a bit more expensive (or is that just my impression) and finally, they tend to be a LOT wetter! I also know little or nothing about spinnakers on them (which models come with spinnakers etc). Also, finally, are they a pain to tow? I mean Dart 16 is 2.3m wide (wider than my car!).

When I was sailing one, I thought it looked a real pain to break down as well. I don't want a boat that is going to take half the day to put together. Having said that, my goodness, don't they go! We were using one in Greece, and I was outsailing everything around on a reach. I went flying past a 35 foot yacht, which claimed to be doing 8 knots. Given the speed I passed, I must have been doing 15+!

Maxim. I do like the look of the Vago, but I wished I knew someone who had at least sailed one, or if Laser had a trial one somewhere. I mean, at first sight, the Topper Topaz Tres looks great, but from what I read and hear, they are not particularly stable, and the spinnakers are extremely difficult to get up and down singlehanded. I don't want to buy a boat without having tried it first, but the Vago seems not actually to be selling yet, does it? Has anyone seen one anywhere except at the boat show!

Good ideas all the same. Keep em coming (especially more info about cats).

Ta

P

Thanks for that.

Do you have a spinnaker on your cat? Is it as effective as one on a monohull?

As for sailing close to the wind,I have a fair understanding of sail shape, aerodynamics etc, and I was extremely impressed with how flexible the dart 16 was (as well as how safe, without a boom!) But I still couldn't get close to the wind.I understand what you mean about VMG, but I suppose as I want to 'cruise' rather than race, flexibility is more important than VMG. I want to sail as many points as possible!

Finally, isn't it a pain having to restring the tramp every time you tow it somewhere? (I ask in total ignorance). The thing I really like about monohulls are that, apart from having to erect the mast and possibly clip a couple of stays on, as soon as its off the trailer, its ready for rigging.

All said, I am happy to keep an open mind. There is a distinct advantage of being able to break your boat down into easily manageable chunks and put it on a roofrack. I somehow can't see my wife being able to lift half a Laser Vago onto a roofrack! Now, a float from a dart 16, that seems more sensible!

Ta

P

I have to admit as a dinghy sailor that Dr. Clifford might have a point.  I've sailed a Hobie and that too is pretty tough and so stable you can take complete novices out as passengers (and more than 1).  A great base to get trapezeing from too, although so stable it would be a shock switching to a monohull. The Hobie in particular doesn't point but you get to windward by close reaching - good if you've got the space.  They are wet and a handfull in a blow.

I've looked at the VAGO in the flesh*t is a kids trainer for high performance boats, I wouldn't think it would match many of your requirements, a Magno might?

http://www.toppersailboats.com/testreports_magno.html - http://www.toppersailboats.com/testreports_magno.html

1. laser 3000, can be sailed double handed as well as single, u can sail them with the kite up on the trapeze on ur own if u wish,

2. topaz tres, NOOOOOOOOO. not gud not good at all,

• no room 4 the crew during a tack especially if ur borad is up, like if u wanted to gybe,
• spiniker is terrible for getting out and even worst for putting away,
• kicker in the crews way, no toe strap for the crew if they don't want to trapeze.
• too tipy, seriously too light 4 trapezing from, as soon as you push off the boat slides side ways from underneith you and both helm n crew end up swiming,
• the jib cleats r in the wrong place as far as i can see.
  
  ok my rant about topaz trez is over, as u can tell i don't like them and have good cause,
  
  3.hobbie 16 turbo??? nice boat, sail it on ur own or 2 up. trapeze, i'm not sure about a kite i think there is one, best ask a cat guy or gal on that.
  didn't seem to take that long to put together n trailing was pretty simple,
  
  hope this helps.
  
  P.S out of all the boats that have been mentioned i would go 4 a cat, i think that would suit ur criteria better,
  
  best of luck

OK, So I hear what you are saying, redback, but now I am confused, so you'll have to help.

I thought that the Magno was brought out by Topper as a bigger alternative to the Topaz, followed by RS bringing out the Vision to be an upgraded Feva, and then Laser bringing out the Vago to compete with them, and sort of be an upgraded Pico (though quite a considerable step. Wasn't this the famous 'two person pico?)

So, if the Vago wont suit, why would the Magno? I am sure I am missing something.

Heeelllpppp!!!

Sailor.jon. Is there anywhere that you know of where people sail laser 3000's in london. I'd be keen to try one. Are they polyethelene, plastic, or grp. I only know the 2000 and 4000, which scratch if you even show them sand!

Thanks

P

The Magno seems to have more room in it and the same goes for the Vision - they seem not to have so much emphasis on being a performance boat trainer.  The front of a VAGO is cramped indeed and not somewhere where you could sit and go for a cruise.  Nothing wrong with that but I don't think that fits in with your criteria. 

If you are going to have a boat as tough as you suggest then it'll have to be polyprop and if its not to be a kids boat it'll have to be a Vision or Magno.  By the way polyprop is difficult to break but scratches easily and is difficult if not impossible to get the scratches out.  If you did ever break it they need very specialist kit to repair.

They are both asymmetrics, I believe, but whether they are suitable for trapezeing I'm not so sure.  Something else you should consider, bigger boats are less lively (generally) although faster but have more powerful sails and are thus heavier to handle.  The boats you are talking about are not big and so things will happen quickly and sometimes too quickly for novices - this is why Wayfarers make such good trainers.

I have to say you are asking a lot and the compromises you will have to make are going to be great so I think you should weight your requirements or buy 2 boats. 

With 2 boats many of the compromises disappear and you can more easily find boats from older designs and save a lot of money.  I sail a Laser 4000 a fairly uncompromising racing machine, but I also have a glass Enterprise which cost £350 with trolly and trailer.  Its good for taking out the complete beginner, cruising with the family (4 up), lending to youths to loon about in, taking on holiday and paddling up rivers.  Its very good for racing on quiet evenings, mid week.  You can sail it, one up, in light winds and stick an outboard on the back.  Its very versitile as are many of the older designs and cheap enough to use in circumstances which it may not quite be suitable for.

The other tack is an old cat design, tough and stable.

I am not suggesting you buy a 4000 however, both you and your crew need to know what you are doing to sail one of those.

Thanks for the responses so far.

I'm not sure about the idea of two boats. I need to store stuff on my driveway in the winter, and don't have the room. As for a Laser 4000, I do agree with what you say. I've sailed them (and RS600 and RS800). There is no way I would even get my wife in them as a crew. I can cope, but if she is going to carry on getting better without scaring herself daft, then something with less performance is better.

I successfully managed to miss seeing the Vago at the boat show (how foolish!) but is it really all that cramped? I know that it has an inverted vang, that gives more room up front. Doesnt that make a big difference?

I don't think I am looking for something to go day sailing on, though its very attractive. I suppose that brings me back to catamarans again!

Has anyone sailed a Magno. I really didn't like the Topper, and I only hear bad things about the topaz. Is the Magno really so different?

I guess the final question I'd ask is about how easy things are to sell second hand. If I buy something and decide to sell it on a couple of years later, how in demand are the various boats? I've not seen second hand RS Visions anywhere (are they just too new) and not many Magno's either. What are cats like to sell second hand? And if I were looking at a cat, which one? I've sailed Dart 16s which are great, but hear that Hobies can submarine if not careful, and then go head over heals. Is that true?

Thanks for all the help. Great forum. Great people!!!

Ta

P

Yes Hobies do pitch pole very easily but this can be avoided by not going out in a 4 or above.  They are surprisingly easy to right again.

The amount of room in a VAGO and a 200 are not comparable.  A 200 is spacious compared with a VAGO.

We have scouts who use Magnos at our club - they look good for training/cruising and the not too serious race - not the same sort of boat as a VAGO which is completely aimed at asymmetric training and racing for youth in my view.  Unlikely to be as fast as a 3000 mind.

I trial sailed a magno, topper were trying to flog them to the sailing school I was working at.  As a sailing school boat I had som concerns.

Rigging required removal of the forestay once you'd put the jib up to stop it fouling the kite. Not such a problem on a private boat, but to a punter at a sailing school it was far too likely they were going to drop the jib forgetting to replace the forestay and drop the mast onto themselves.

The kite system could have been better designed: the shute it so far back down the jib it can only easily be launched on one side,without it going through the slot, could be remedied by sailing dead downwind them the question of unexpected gybes for people learning.

It was perfectly managable single handed, even with kite up, the GP shaped hull with massive chines meant in a just it healed a bit the chine dug in and it kept going without massive weather helm. I felt it could encourage improvers to learn to sail badly, and then struggle when they swapped to a boat that did need to be kept upright.  Afraid I've not sailed the RS vision to compare it.  These are just my thoughts we only had the boat for a day with time there may be ways round the problems we encountered.

Ok guys, thanks for all the advice.

It does sound like a dart is the best option. Any one got an idea how much they weigh, and whether they can go on a car roof. Easier to do that than tow it!

I think the only downside to a dart is that its a bit splashy(!) and doesn't tack very well (slow to go round).

So, if I was looking at a cat, is the general opinion that a dart 16 is the best option, or something else. I can sail darts. and have trapezed off them. I've never dunked myself on one, so I have no idea about how easy they are to right.

Let us know your thoughts, and also if there are any other boats you would suggest.

And once again, thanks!

P

I am suprised no one has suggested this yet.

How about the 59er?? Its relativly quick, could be classed as a skiff, sit in boat rather than on top of. There not that scary a boat to sail but then you still have a full carbon mast with a mast head kite.

The only problem is that its not going to be as bullet proof as a dart 16 as its not plastic.

Dart 16's are appaling boats in my opinion, at the NSSA nationals we had 6 brand new dart 16's. By the end of the day sailing in a 16 building to 24 knots every single halyard had broken on every boat, 3 of the masts had fallen down and you can't sail them downwind in more than 22 knots as there is a high risk of pitchpoling, also if you do capsize they drift downwind very quickly as there is hardly anything of them in the water and they are cifficult to right.

other catermarans maybe a better option if you want a cat, otherwise I think you would be best off with a 59er ( http://www.ovingtonboats.com - www.ovingtonboats.com ).

Skiffman,

Sorry if I am missing something, but surely the 59er doesnt really fit the bill. It doesn't have the option of a trapeze, so no practice there, it seems a might high requirements for a single handed beginner (145kg+ ideal crew weight) and it really is way too expensive and not very bullet proof.

I've sailed darts, and I'll agree with what you say regarding righting a capsized one. It was hard on my own, and I am not sure my wife would manage on her own. As for pitchpoling, I don't know. Never happened to me, but I was told its a big risk on a hobie, but not so much on a dart.

I am concerned that they don't go upwind so well, and they tack very slowly, but on the straight they are great fun! I was wondering whether anyone has more experience of hobies and what they think about the new middle size one (twixxy, I think).

Anyway, still open to suggestions. It still sounds like I should be looking at either a cat or the RS Vision, as the only other thing people have suggested is the topper magno, and some have had a bad response to that (particularly the spinnaker).

So, what is it to be. Cat, or RS. And if its a cat, which one?

As for going on the roof, it seems the maximum load for my car is around 75kg, so you are right about the cat being too heavy, as is the RS.Ah well, I suppose its a tow then!

Thanks once again for all the help. I am sure I am being demanding, but hey, I bet there are loads of people out there looking for something similar.

P

The laser vago will be available in Oct.

Laser are taking orders and then compiling a demo list giving preference to those who have ordered and paid a deposit.

Ordered one myself as it hits many of the criteria you have.

Would love to hear from a mere mortal who had test sailed one.

Redback you seems to know a lot about the boat. Have you sailed it and if so whats it like.

henbroon,

How did you go about choosing one? Did you just see one at the boat show, or something more? And how many do you intend to sail in it?

Thanks

Perry

Perry

Needed something different, sailed Blaze for 2 seasons and Vortex for 6 months, wanted something with a assy and poss a trapeze, was going to get new assy set up for Vortex or buy a second hand Vario. So as you can see my thought process has been all over the shop this last 6 months.

Then Laser launched the Vago and are doing a deal to people who pay 10% deposit. They will compile a demo list and after demoing it if you dont like it you can have a full refund. But if you decide to go ahead you dont have to pay the balance until 6 months after delivery (so its effectively interest free)  which will be Oct so you dont need to find balance till Apr 06 which would give me loads of time to sell the Blaze and Vortex.

Complicated I know but there is some logic in it believe me.

Sailing will be mostly single handed (provided its as stable as they make out) with the option of taking me mates for a blast now and again.

With that sort of versitility it should tick all the boxes provided its as good on the water as on paper.

Demos start Julyish so I'll keep you posted.

Iain

Iain,

Sounds reasonable. I'll be very interested when you have tried it. This whole search started when I sailed an RS Feva, which was great fun for me single handed with spinnaker, but lacked the trapeze. However, at the same time, my wife wanted something that she could sail, and is very new to sailing. The Feva suited perfectly right now, but I reckoned that if we got something that we can only sail single-handed, it was a problem. Hence the interest in Vago, RS Vision (and I suppose the Topper magno as well, though it seems to get bad reviews from many people). But then, cats are good fun as well.

Anyway, please do post when you've had a sail. By the way, is the demo a one off chance, or do you get a day of sailing, or what?

Ta

Perry

Perry heres an e-mail I received from one of the sailsmen from laser hope it clarifies a few things

Demo start July apparently.

i looked at the vago at the london boat show in great detail because it was very simlar to what i was looking for. but what i still cant defide is whether its a singlehanded boat with the means to 2-up racing or the other way around. i hope someone out there will have the anwser to this. the only thing i was against was the price as 4 and a half grand is quite a lot of money for us growing teenagers. do you have a budget? eventually i went for the laser 2 although it is a declining class. my brother and i cam sail it in most conditions and the risks of deathrolling downwind in a blow, kept us from an assemetric.

HI, i am 17, 12.5 stone and just got rid of a 420, i am looking to sail a much faster, more complicated double handed boat but i have a very low budget

any ideas??

again?

Hey all,

Don't know if you are interested, but here is what I found from research and chatting to people at the dinghy show.

1. Laser Vago. In demand, but laser in their infinite wisdom felt that the UK RYA dinghy show was not important enough to bring their one and only example of the Vago to it. They did want me to sign up to a refundable deposit there and then, without anything more to go on than a brochure and a promise of a trial before I paid the rest. To be honest, though, from what people around the stand were saying, the Vago will be a quick, but fairly tough boat aimed at training people to go on to the faster GRP lasers. It doesn't really have enough room up front for a comfortable day's sailing, if that takes your fancy instead of racing/. Having said that, it is a lot of boat for the money!

2. Topper Magno. Looks almost indistinguishable from the RS Vision, and looks quite a nice boat. Topper see it as a family boat with racing potential, so similar to the Vago, though I think they want to have a class and it be a racing boat of its own. The only drawbacks I can see is that just about everyone knocks the spinnaker as being a bit naff.

3. RS Vision. Well, it was there. Very roomy, nice looking (getting the feel I liked it?!). RS were honest enough to say that although they are selling at a rate of knots, they don't see it as a boat that will have a class and racing. They very much see it as a fun boat that can go fast, and that you can learn on without getting bored quickly. They said phrases like 'compromise to give all round appeal' and I have to say, it did. The person I was talking to said they recognised that people tend to swing between wanting to race and wanting just to be out on the water. They see the vision as the ideal boat for the person who just wants to sail without competing, and yet can still enjoy the speed and fun of spinnys and trapezes.

So, I think that answers it. The final interest of mine was a cat. To be honest, I still think they are great, and there are some cats like the spitfire that have daggerboards so as to improve their windward capabilities.

However, when I started asking round, there were very few lakes nearby that would allow me to put a cat in their dinghy park. That meant breaking it down every time I wanted to sail, and I am just not willing to do that!

Hope this helps others.

All the best

Perry

VecchioJohn
Please do not revive threads that are 4 years old.

I am sure the Original Poster either has a boat now or has decided to go off and play a game of golf instead.

Its not a moan directly at you but as a regular among others, newcomers keep posting on threads older than a year.