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List classes of boat for sale |
New PY Numbers |
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IanW 
Posting king 
Joined: 17 Mar 04 Online Status: Offline Posts: 115 |
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 Topic: New PY NumbersPosted: 24 Feb 06 at 2:30pm |
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Nothing to do with the average hull weight dropping 30 kilos and the fleet moving away from tin rigs and white sails to carbon rigs and kevlar sails.
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Pabs
Posting king
Joined: 05 Jan 05 Online Status: Offline Posts: 177 |
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Posted: 24 Feb 06 at 4:20pm |
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This is a qoute off the Phantoms website forum its with regards to what they think about there PY its based on the Steve Nicholson Trophy Qoute If you adjust the handicaps on the handicap on the handicap race @ Northampton last Sunday.
So Bumble do you think there PY is fair at 1045??????????? |
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5420
Really should get out more 
Joined: 16 Mar 05 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 622 |
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Posted: 24 Feb 06 at 4:51pm |
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has no one notis this yet or am i just stating the overus
not all the classes are on the list a few that are not on are the rs vareo rs 800 49er dose this mean they are staying the same or they just not mayed there minde up yet |
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Guest
Newbie 
Joined: 21 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 24 Feb 06 at 5:45pm |
So what ... they had a good day, they sailed the best or they had a course that suited them ... of a bit of everything. PY's are based on an average over a year at lots of venues in a range of weather ... don't fixate on one data point. Rick |
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Paramedic
Really should get out more
Joined: 27 Jan 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 929 |
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Posted: 24 Feb 06 at 5:50pm |
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I think 1045 is still a bit over generous. I'd have thought that about 1025 to 1035 is probably a fairer reflection given the relatively huge changes that the class has undergone. The Merlin one has been massaged as well, and using the Merlin as a benchmark which has developed more significantly in the last 5 years? Despite it being a one design it's the Phantom! I still think they do this the wrong way round, there are more classes that make changes to go faster than ones that don't threfore it makes more sense to me to increase the yardstick of the staid classes than to reduce the yardstick of those that develop (Excluding Cherubs, Moths and Canoes). How is dropping the Merlin PY by 3 points and the Phantom PY 2 points going to help the Enterprise who gets beaten by about 12 minuites? |
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russell
Groupie 
Joined: 05 Nov 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 68 |
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Posted: 25 Feb 06 at 1:10pm |
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The Phantom PY seems to be good under certain conditions and certain courses, I expect all classes have good and bad days. We have a reputation at our local club which is a small lake, for having a generous handicap. However despite winning the Phantom South West travellers last year I didn't win any of our local clubs handcap open days. I was beaten by a laser on one occaison and a solo on another. The Phantom fleet is quite large and there are still a number of older boats competing, the handicap system is an average after all. The new ones have developed but I am not sure quite as much as stated earlier in this thread. The minimum weight has not changed to my knowledge, it has been 61Kg for as long as I have been sailing them. However it was always tricky building the GRP ones down to weight. My last GRP one was 66Kg. Epoxy has solved this. It was always possible to build a deep cockpit wooden version down to weight, but again not so easy to do a self drainer down to weight. So there were many boats around the 70-80kg range. The carbon rig has opened up the weight range range of the class to lighter sailors more than anything. 12.5 stone is now enough to be competitive. I am not sure a carbon mast is actually faster than a tin one, but it does make gybing easier! |
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Russell
Phantom 1330 59er 090 |
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JimC
Really should get out more
Joined: 17 May 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 6662 |
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Posted: 25 Feb 06 at 2:31pm |
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Yeah, its exceeding naive to look at one event and say handicaps are wrong, for all that most people do. To take an example, a 97 rules Cherub would sail to about 820 in perfect conditions (wind, flat water) and probably getting on for 1120 in its worst conditions (no wind, waves). Its a pretty blunt instrument the old PY, but there is a good bit of data and it does an amazingly good job. I certainly don't believe its practical to improve it unless you have a couple of million quid lying around...
Jim C *justification for saying that the Cherub worked out that quick = 1)FD website commenting on Cerubs overtaking FDs upwind in perfact conditions and 2 YY report by the Bloddy Mary winning 49er a couple of years ago stating the Cherub was very nearly as quick as the 49er downmhill. Justification for the slow figure - bitter experience! |
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Rupert
Really should get out more
Joined: 11 Aug 04 Location: Whitefriars sc Online Status: Offline Posts: 8956 |
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Posted: 25 Feb 06 at 3:43pm |
Only the Primary and secondary numbers are published here. Recorded numbers and more returns required type numbers for classes where not enough data exists yet appear only to be published in the book that is sent out to clubs who make returns. I think this change came last year, possibly to encourage clubs to make returns? |
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Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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tack'ho
Really should get out more
Joined: 08 Feb 06 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 1100 |
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Posted: 27 Feb 06 at 8:24am |
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anybody know what the laser radial one was? and how much it has changed over the last 5 years?
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I might be sailing it, but it's still sh**e!
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jeffers
Really should get out more
Joined: 29 Mar 04 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 3048 |
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Posted: 27 Feb 06 at 8:28am |
I do not believe any of the Laser handicaps have changed at all in the last 5 years. There have been murmerings that the handicap may need to be altered because of the new controls until several people said that these don't actually make a difference in performance they just make the boat easier to sail. Regards, Paul |
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Paul
---------------------- D-Zero GBR 74 |
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