http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C4B7A55...6webversion.pdf - http://www.rya.org.uk/NR/rdonlyres/C4B7A55...6webversion.pdf

Oh to be fat enough for a phantom.

Linky no worky !

The PY is the best system we have. It represents the returns for club racing so one can assume as more people are sailing the phantom class the average standard has dropped at club level. This is normal for popular classes - the gap between the best and the general majority grows and the PY becomes lower than the potential for the class. It is true for Lasers, Ents, RS400s etc.

A higher PY number is a credit to the class because it show more people are racing it at club level. Well done the phantom class and association.

This is a qoute off the Phantoms website forum its with regards to what they think about there PY its based on the Steve Nicholson Trophy

has no one notis this yet or am i just stating the overus

not all the classes are on the list a few that are not on are the rs vareo rs 800 49er

dose this mean they are staying the same or they just not mayed there minde up yet

So what ... they had a good day, they sailed the best or they had a course that suited them ... of a bit of everything.

PY's are based on an average over a year at lots of venues in a range of weather ... don't fixate on one data point.

Rick

I think 1045 is still a bit over generous. I'd have thought that about 1025 to 1035 is probably a fairer reflection given the relatively huge changes that the class has undergone.

The Merlin one has been massaged as well, and using the Merlin as a benchmark which has developed more significantly in the last 5 years? Despite it being a one design it's the Phantom!

I still think they do this the wrong way round, there are more classes that make changes to go faster than ones that don't threfore it makes more sense to me to increase the yardstick of the staid classes than to reduce the yardstick of those that develop (Excluding Cherubs, Moths and Canoes).

How is dropping the Merlin PY by 3 points and the Phantom PY 2 points going to help the Enterprise who gets beaten by about 12 minuites?

The Phantom PY seems to be good under certain conditions and certain courses, I expect all classes have good and bad days.  We have a reputation at our local club which is a small lake, for having a generous handicap.  However despite winning the Phantom South West travellers last year I didn't win any of our local clubs handcap open days.  I was beaten by a laser on one occaison and a solo on another.

The Phantom fleet is quite large and there are still a number of older boats competing, the handicap system is an average after all.  The new ones have developed but I am not sure quite as much as stated earlier in this thread.  The minimum weight has not changed to my knowledge, it has been 61Kg for as long as I have been sailing them.  However it was always tricky building the GRP ones down to weight.  My last GRP one was 66Kg. Epoxy has solved this.  It was always possible to build a deep cockpit wooden version down to weight, but again not so easy to do a self drainer down to weight. So  there were many boats around the 70-80kg range.

The carbon rig has opened up the weight range range of the class to lighter sailors more than anything.  12.5 stone is now enough to be competitive.  I am not sure a carbon mast is actually faster than a tin one, but it does make gybing easier!

Only the Primary and secondary numbers are published here. Recorded numbers and more returns required type numbers for classes where not enough data exists yet appear only to be published in the book that is sent out to clubs who make returns. I think this change came last year, possibly to encourage clubs to make returns?

Makes sense, I was wondering whether it becoming the womens Olympic boat would make a difference.  Of course they all sail fleet racing so would have no effect on the handicaps

At the risk of starting another bun fight, if a boat is easier to sail to its maximum potential and the PY figures are based on the avaerage performance of the boat over the course of a season throughout the country, you would expect to see a slight decrese in the handicap number.  As a greater number of people will sailing the boat closer to its max potentila for more of the time.

.  As a greater number of people will sailing the boat closer to its max potentila for more of the time.

[/QUOTE]

max potentila? I think there's one of them growing in my garden....Never seen a Laser sailing by it though!

Just a quick question on PYs...

What boats have good PYs & which have bad?

Also if the sailors were of equal skill what does everyone think the race order would generally be out of a: RS300, RS200, Laser, Radial, 29er, 49er, Vareo, Blaze in light, medium & heavy wind (after PY corrections)?

At a very simple level and if you have enough dosh for a new, or nearly new, boat look for a boat that has undergone big changes in rig or construction, but is preferably a one design. A class where you either have a newish boat or don't bother turning up at open meetings if winning is your intention.

This highlights the Phantom (Carbon rig, new competetive FS hulls)

GP14 (less so, but the new FS hulls are mignificantly faster than most wooden ones and all early glass ones)

Solo

Brand new Osprey

Fireball

Any of those have the potential to be very good pothunters boats, there are undoubtedly others!

As for boats to avoid for pure 100% handicap racing only i'd suggest the Enterprise and the Lark, possibly the Scorpion too, have among the least favourable handicaps these days as neither has changed significantly for decades. As i said earlier in the thread these are boats that could do with a PY boost rather than a trimming of everyone else's number.

For class racing of course none of this is a problem, and the three classes with the "least favourable" handicap in my opinion all have a strong circuit and well attended championships.

This is true, but there is a large differance - or at least one percieved within the class - between the kevlar and glass boats, wide bow and fine bow and also composite / FRP / Wood boats.

I wasn't aware that the handicap had changed, and the fact that it has so significantly makes the FB assocciation look bad for only sponsoring a 1 or 2 point bonus for the classic fleet sailors!

I still think it has a good handicap though, provided of course there is wind.