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Chris 249 View Drop Down
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Posts: 2041 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Chris 249 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: High Performance Boats
    Posted: 19 Mar 07 at 11:36pm
Originally posted by Skiffybob

"less is more" (i.e. shorter and lighter is always quicker and more fun).



Damn, that means I'll have to dump the Canoe in favour of a Solo (which is shorter and lighter and therefore quicker and more fun); stop sailing the Formula 16 and move to a Hobie 14 (ditto); and never sail an 18 or 12 again as Mirrors are shorter and lighter and therefore more fun .

Don't worry, I do understand what you mean. But of course, there are smart people (like the multi 49er world champ and skiff designers) who really love boats that are comparatively long and heavy, like 505s and FDs. It just depends what sensation you're looking for.




Edited by Chris 249
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Medway Maniac View Drop Down
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Posts: 2788 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Medway Maniac Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 12:54am

Indeed, according to my calcs, if you bring the 505 down to 100kg all-up - not unreasonable with a re-deck - the PY wil be somewhere around 850-860, and the boat will still be easy to sail (appreciably nicer than a 4k). Stick an asymmetric on it and I'd probably buy one.

As for 'too big for restricted waters', when I bought a 505 years ago, a Nat 12 sailor described it as a 'big boy's 12'. It roll tacks nicely and is much more tractable than most boats of that overall speed. I'd like another if it weren't for that kite, esp. the new 'downhill-only' one.

 
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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 8:47am
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

As for 'too big for restricted waters',


Well I've never spotted very many amongst the various gravel pits and rivers I've been to over the years...

The trouble is that as a boat gets faster then on small waters the percentage of time you spend tacking, gybing, hoisting, dropping and mark rounding increases out of all proportion, so all beats are "tack at the bank", and the boat never gets going. All the big rags are going to do is to get you knocked flat as a big gust hits coming out of a tack...

And if you're never going to get going, why on earth bother with the fast boat? No point in having a boat that's twice as fast as an Enterprise if the water is so confined that you're lucky to beat an Enterprise round the track!

Edited by JimC
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Rupert View Drop Down
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Posts: 8956 		Post Options Post Options   Quote Rupert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 9:08am
We have one 505 sailed by 2 18-20 stone people at Whitefriars. Considering they are far too heavy for the boat, are not the best sailors out there, and the unsuitability of the boat for small water, they occasionally surprise us all and show what a truely great boat the 505 is by actually coming in the top 3 or 4 in the results. Most of the time they are in the bottom 3 or 4, but they have a great time on the boat - certainly more fun than in a Wayfarer (the boat they would need instead of an Enterprise to carry the weight!) and the capsizes certainly keep the rest of us amused. They tend to sail it as a hiking dinghy, by the way!
Firefly 2324, Puffin 229, Minisail 3446 Mirror 70686
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aardvark_issues View Drop Down
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Posts: 505 		Post Options Post Options   Quote aardvark_issues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 9:12am
Originally posted by JimC

Originally posted by Medway Maniac

As for 'too big for restricted
waters',


Well I've never spotted very many amongst the various gravel pits and rivers
I've been to over the years...


Well I have! Quite a large number of them around the midlands it would
seem...
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49erGBR735HSC View Drop Down
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Posts: 1991 		Post Options Post Options   Quote 49erGBR735HSC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by Medway Maniac

Indeed, according to my calcs, if you bring the 505 down to 100kg all-up - not unreasonable with a re-deck - the PY wil be somewhere around 850-860, and the boat will still be easy to sail (appreciably nicer than a 4k). Stick an asymmetric on it and I'd probably buy one.

As for 'too big for restricted waters', when I bought a 505 years ago, a Nat 12 sailor described it as a 'big boy's 12'. It roll tacks nicely and is much more tractable than most boats of that overall speed. I'd like another if it weren't for that kite, esp. the new 'downhill-only' one.

 

You can still put a smaller kite on the 505, you don't need to go for the largest size to be the quickest. From my memory, and I'm sure Lozza will correct me if I'm wrong but we went quite quick in one reggatta using more of a reaching kite and sailing angles instead of straight downwind. Also there was another boat with as small, if not smaller kite battling with us for positions at the front of the fleet.

 

The 4000 could be put on a diet like the 3000 although reckon it would kill the class as there would be a split between the old and new boats, and why buy a light 4000 which is probably going to be 890 on PY if its lucky when there is a perfectly good, faster and cheaper alternative in the form of the RS800? The 800 is a fairly forgiving boat and on a par difficulty wise to the 4000, so why design a boat to do what the 800 does already?  
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lozza View Drop Down
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Posts: 262 		Post Options Post Options   Quote lozza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 3:24pm

Originally posted by 49erGBR735HSC

You can still put a smaller kite on the 505, you don't need to go for the largest size to be the quickest. From my memory, and I'm sure Lozza will correct me if I'm wrong but we went quite quick in one reggatta using more of a reaching kite and sailing angles instead of straight downwind. Also there was another boat with as small, if not smaller kite battling with us for positions at the front of the fleet.

I think that was down to the people sailing with the monster kite not knowing about downwind angles and the course consisting of tight reaches as well.

For 505's to sail dead downwind, the wind must be really light

At big events where the course's are windward leeward, the downwind angles are pretty close to assymetric classes in anything over 7-8 knots and even below this they're not dead downwind as the extra area doesn't really help.

At the hayling worlds, someone had brought along a modified 5oh which he had designed.  Same deck moulding but:

Carbon Rig
Fully Battened Main
Self Tacker
Remoulded cockpit

To be honest, it looked cr*p next to the latest rondar boats and was probably slower too.  Not sure how to drop the 27kg's as medway reckons, the most corrector i've ever known was a kyrwood with 12kg.  The germans who had it didn't like it because the construction was too flimsy in places and not very stiff and they were much more confident about their rondar.

If you make boats too light, they don't don't last as long (look at the 470's).  There are 505's which are 10 years old still capable of coming in the top 10 at international events with a new set of sails and foils.

505 sails pitch over

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JimC View Drop Down
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Posts: 6662 		Post Options Post Options   Quote JimC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 5:32pm
Originally posted by lozza

If you make boats too light, they don't don't last as long (look at the 470's).


But the 470 could be 60% lighter *and* last far longer if it were properly engineered. At the time it was designed few people really knew better, but with modern materials and construction techniques you could make far lighter and far longer lived boats. The 505 is much better, having far fewer internal restrictions, but you could probably improve things by freeing up rules 5.4.1 and 5.6.3 and some of the measurement diagram.
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redback View Drop Down
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Posts: 1502 		Post Options Post Options   Quote redback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 6:50pm
I think its not enough to just make a boat lighter or put more sail on her.  That only improves the performance a bit.  The improved speed will require a different hull shape to maximise the effect.  The 4000 is just a little full around the mast and not quite flat enough near the stern to get to 850 when just made lighter.
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landlocked View Drop Down
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Posts: 222 		Post Options Post Options   Quote landlocked Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Mar 07 at 9:56pm
[/QUOTE]

Well I have! Quite a large number of them around the midlands it would
seem...
[/QUOTE]

you are not even allowed to sail a 505 on our water we have a Brithish Waterways imposed limit of 5mt. (we're in the midlands by the way)

Edited by landlocked
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