Are Laser and Topper dropping out of high performance boat production?  I notice that the Xenon and Omega are combining for open meetings.  Clearly the most high performance Topper is no faster than an Omega.  Similarly Laser do not appear to be developing anything faster than a Vago. 

There is a niche for a 2 man single trapeze skiff type boat which with a carbon rig and epoxy construction would be light enough to give a yardstick of around 850.  I can't see it being developed by Laser since it would compete with the 4000 but Topper should, before RS do.

The niche isn't empty. The Cherub and especially the daemon fills the gap.

A b14 isnt far off the mark at 880. Somethin like a b14 with a slightly bigger kite, narrower wings and a single wire wud fit the bill.

We were almost there then, with a B14E:

http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2358&KW=B14 - http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2 358&KW=B14

Bit more carbon in hull, rig, racks & foils should do it.

There was the single-wire 800, of course, but nobody seemed to fancy it.

So, would there be a demand?

Slightly bigger kite ?  Its already around 30 sq.m giving the B14 50 sq.m of downwind sail !  All that without a trapeze ( or two).  And you want to add narrower wings ??!

There are plenty of single trapeze dinghies to choose from and some are very good.  And you've got to ask why the single trapeze RS800 flopped. 

Maybe but the reality was the single string 800 had wide wings and was rubbish for the helm as a sit out boat.   Did it have tramps ? 

Hi everyone,

As far as I know, many years ago, there was a Cherub design that measured as a National Twelve in accordance with the National Twelve measurement rules.  I think that some of the problems are with the Twelves 'rise of floor' measurement and the 'shape of sheerline' rules.

Ian  (Yorkshire Dales S.C.)

everyone sems to get really hung-up on PY rating, and I don't understand why. I've sailed boats with PY's of 950+ which are much quicker and more fun than other boats with PY's of sub 850.

The PY system isn't a real way to judge a boat's performance. It's like judging how quick and fun a car is by the BHP (I guarantee that a Lotus Elise is quicker and more fun than a lardy Bentley with twice the BHP!).

Typically to increase a boat's PY, you need to increase it's length to make it quicker upwind and when displacement sailing, hence making it less dynamic. You have to ask yourself whether you want a lardy bentley to "waft" around the course in at high speed but in confort, or whether you want to tear-ass round in a go-cart with your hair on fire.

If you want the former, buy based on PY, if you want the latter, buy based on "less is more" (i.e. shorter and lighter is always quicker and more fun).

For my money a 97-rules single-wire Cherub is the Chaterham 7 of dinghy's (and the 12ft skiff is a bit more like the konniggseggg!).

If you've never tried a short, light boat, do it. there's never been a better time...

I was thinking of the RS800 single wire when I wrote what I did, that's why I chose 850 as a PY.  Surely a 59er with a PY just over 900 indicates that 850 would be an acceptable aim for a single wire boat.  I also think the 4000 would go a lot faster if only it were lighter.  I wasn't aware the 800 lacked power without the helm on the wire after all the wings were wider and surely the 59er helm msut feel very powerless and yet manages a PY of just over 900.

What I am sure of is the boat will have to be longer than 14foot.  Boats of that or shorter length just grind to a halt when the wind drops and they are crewed by a couple of average sized guys especially if designed for high speed (ie very little rocker and the rig set well back).

So I reckon we are looking for a 59er with a trapeze and taller rig.  Or a 15 foot B14 with narrower racks and a trapeze or lightwieght L4000 (with a slightly flatter aft section).

I'm afraid the RS500 although an excellent boat is no where fast enough and twin string Cherubs although capable of great speed at times will not average enough speed around the course in this country's average winds and certainly not with a couple of guys each of 13 stone.

Its been an interesting discussion.

Indeed, according to my calcs, if you bring the 505 down to 100kg all-up - not unreasonable with a re-deck - the PY wil be somewhere around 850-860, and the boat will still be easy to sail (appreciably nicer than a 4k). Stick an asymmetric on it and I'd probably buy one.

As for 'too big for restricted waters', when I bought a 505 years ago, a Nat 12 sailor described it as a 'big boy's 12'. It roll tacks nicely and is much more tractable than most boats of that overall speed. I'd like another if it weren't for that kite, esp. the new 'downhill-only' one.

You can still put a smaller kite on the 505, you don't need to go for the largest size to be the quickest. From my memory, and I'm sure Lozza will correct me if I'm wrong but we went quite quick in one reggatta using more of a reaching kite and sailing angles instead of straight downwind. Also there was another boat with as small, if not smaller kite battling with us for positions at the front of the fleet.

The 4000 could be put on a diet like the 3000 although reckon it would kill the class as there would be a split between the old and new boats, and why buy a light 4000 which is probably going to be 890 on PY if its lucky when there is a perfectly good, faster and cheaper alternative in the form of the RS800? The 800 is a fairly forgiving boat and on a par difficulty wise to the 4000, so why design a boat to do what the 800 does already?  

I think that was down to the people sailing with the monster kite not knowing about downwind angles and the course consisting of tight reaches as well.

For 505's to sail dead downwind, the wind must be really light

At big events where the course's are windward leeward, the downwind angles are pretty close to assymetric classes in anything over 7-8 knots and even below this they're not dead downwind as the extra area doesn't really help.

At the hayling worlds, someone had brought along a modified 5oh which he had designed.  Same deck moulding but:

Carbon Rig
Fully Battened Main
Self Tacker
Remoulded cockpit

To be honest, it looked cr*p next to the latest rondar boats and was probably slower too.  Not sure how to drop the 27kg's as medway reckons, the most corrector i've ever known was a kyrwood with 12kg.  The germans who had it didn't like it because the construction was too flimsy in places and not very stiff and they were much more confident about their rondar.

If you make boats too light, they don't don't last as long (look at the 470's).  There are 505's which are 10 years old still capable of coming in the top 10 at international events with a new set of sails and foils.

505 sails pitch over

I'll remind you of that, Redback, should you complain about the PY on my V3k this season. I'll be taking a voluntary 20 point hit, which should meet your criterion.

I have two pennies to shove in- a "clubman" strict OOD 505 with a carbon rig retailing for about £7000 including reasonable rags would fit the 'gap' for boats single trap and heavier sailors.

In terms of the 59er with a trap- it is a pretty wide boat, probably not the best trapeziing side deck shape along the hull, and a mast which was specifically lightened so as NOT to take a trap.

But I reckon there will be a 39er at some point which may hit your numbers and wish list. Brit's need to think international again  and get a bit out of the predominant UK SMODs IMHO.

DOH !!!